Celtic Heroes

Someone killed your lower-level alt in the arena, and you're out for revenge. Someone ks'd an event boss while you were waiting for your clannies to arrive, and you're out for revenge. Someone jumped the line for Killian, and you're out for revenge.

When do we retaliate against other players, why do we do it, and *should* we do it? I'm eager to hear your thoughts on this. Here are some of mine on the latter two questions.

There are two kinds of reasons for retaliating. One is backward-looking: a wrong has been committed, and retaliation functions to give the wrong-doer what s/he deserves. This treats retaliation as a kind of retribution. The other reason is forward-looking: a wrong has been committed, and retaliation functions to prevent the wrong-doer from committing similar wrongs in the future. This treats retaliation as a kind of preventive measure.

On retaliation: this is probably the most often publicly aired reason I hear, especially in the arena and at the start of events. But it's often executed out of proportion -- you killed me once, so now I will kill you whenever I see you and I'll have my clan do the same forever; or you ks'd my clan on an event mob, so now I'll follow you around all week and kill all your mobs so you can't get xp. So, for all you retaliators out there, here's the question for you: when has enough retaliation been given, such that retaliating any more would constitute doing wrong to the person (rather than merely redressing a prior wrong)?

On prevention: this is relatively more rare as a reason. But, again, it's typically executed out of proportion to the original offense. So, for you rare preventers, a similar question: when has enough been done to teach the relevant lesson, such that doing any more preventive measures would constitute doing wrong to the person?

And an issue for everyone, about whether retaliation is *ever* ok to do: when someone is wronged irl, they typically face a hearing by their peers or some impartial third-party -- and retaliating without verification from this kind of third party is considered vigilante justice and frowned upon (unless you're a superhero, of course, which none of us are). Then again, irl there are systems of law and order that act as substitutes for vigilante justice, and there is no such system in CH. So, quite apart from *why* people retaliate, and *how much* retaliation is sufficient, what are all your thoughts on *whether* retaliation is ever morally ok to do?

Geez look at this crap. Yall try way to hard to delve into stuff like this for a game. I keep it simple, if someone ticks me off or does me wrong ima get em back. Its a game for gods sake why go so deep into it with all the ethics

Someone killed your lower-level alt in the arena, and you're out for revenge.

You went to a pvp zone without backup and got killed. Revenge? For what? Suck it up.

Someone ks'd an event boss while you were waiting for your clannies to arrive, and you're out for revenge.

KS'ed? Lol, your clan got beat. Revenge? For what? Suck it up.

Someone jumped the line for Killian, and you're out for revenge.

Try to kill the guy who jumped the line. If he still got the medal, then you got beat on a pvp quest. Revenge? For what? Suck it up.

Problem with all this is that there are players from all over the world with different values and younger players that haven't yet fully established their own set of morals. Also, irl, what is ethical is usually based on if you are doing something or if it is happening to you.

Example: you come out of a store and find $20 on the ground. You pick it up and look around and don't see anyone. You pocket it and walk away with $20 more than you had before. Nothing wrong with that. On the flip side, you drop the money and get in your car. When you realize that you don't have it and go back to the store to look or see if anyone gave it to the clerk and end up $20 short, you feel wronged.

The right and wrong things to do are all based on personal ethics. The thing that usually leads is to decide to do the right thing is consequences. Our actions are not always judged by our peers. Often, judgement comes from our direct peers. Most people's friends are going to make them buy lunch or the first round with the money they found. Not really any negative consequences there.

Ethics really has little to do with retaliation, or anything, in the game. There are very few negative consequences that can be enforced by other players. More importantly, retaliation usually leads to whomever you retaliate against going to their clan and saying you started the whole thing. That just leads to the clan taking action against you. Ends up being a big viscious circle.

Wow, very thoughtful.

Personally I am not much of a retaliatory. If someone kills me (or an alt of mine) in the arena, I ask them politely to stop, if they continue to kill me, I leave the arena for an hour or so, or log out and log back in later. If someone kses me on an event boss after I have camped it for a while, I accept that they are a jerk, and just find another boss to camp.

Now, in my experience most people are not like me (sadly). When someone kills them or an alt in the arena, they call their entire clan in to continually kill the person responsable, even if it was an accident, (the person was trying to help, and accidently used an aoe skill, killing the person they were trying to help, usually a mage or druid).

One thing I find extremely interesting about some people's minds, is that if player 1 kills player 2, then player 2 gets four more players in to help kill player 1. Then every time player 1 walks in arena, players 2-6 kill him immediately, but player 1 never gives up, he continues to go in arena to try to kill one of the others, even though he continually dies. It is amazing to me how stubborn some people can be lol.

So basically, I feel that if someone kills you in the arena when you arent paying attention or something, then you can either be more mature then that player, and ask him to leave him alone/call for a truce, or whatever polite thing you wanna say to make him stop. Or, you can go back, kill him, and THEN call for a truce, saying that since you killed me, and I killed you, are we even now?

Basically it all boils down to the person's personality, if they are more mature, they will know when enough is enough, if they continue seeking revenge, it shows them to be less mature.

Great thread! The way I see it, each ch server is, in many ways, its own lawless world (of course, OTM imposes "law" on things like stealing and such, but interplayer relations are not, with some very rare exceptions, regulated). So, deviant (and I use that in the broadest sense) behavior is left to the player community to address. There are three primary reasons for punishment: rehabilitation, retribution and deterrence (general and specific). It seems to me that you've hit on how each of these are imposed upon a deviant player through group-vigilantism and/or server-societal pressure.

A noob kills your alt on a glad, you call your clan to close the arena to him. You punish him for his behavior (retribution), deter him and others like him from skipping the glad line (specific and then general deterrence), and encourage him to act in the accepted manner in the future (rehabilitation).

But you've really touched on how servers create their own little society within them and how it really comes down to the players to deal with how that society is governed.

Thanks for posting!

If they did it on purpose that means they are rotten and they should get paid back to what was given.

As a follower of Christ it is hard to love my enemies....


So I use this verse and twist it around.


Exodus 22:1 “If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and kills it or sells it, he shall repay five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep.


If a player kills my glad then I will kill his glad x5. If they ks my event boss i will ks theirs x5

I just cannot seem to follow this one:


Romans 12:19
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

Edit: The beliefs stated here are my personal opinions.

what are all your thoughts on *whether* retaliation is ever morally ok to do?

Real life ethics should be separated from in-game ethics.

In a game, the value of a virtual character's life is essentially meaningless. You have infinite free respawns, and your character isn't permanently hurt in any way whatsoever. Only your pride is injured. This means that the real life equivalent of in-game arena retaliation is lightly slapping someone on the face, which I think is totally justified for very minor crimes.

This is why I believe that in-game retaliation is always morally ok to do.

I am the god of celtic retaliation. Screw with me and you'll be findin me wherever you go