Celtic Heroes

As for the “I joined clan, I earned it, its mine”. Lets see it like that. Ur a mage, u joined clan, another mage had shadow gele wand (firebolt) and now has won void. He doesnt need to return his shadow, he obviously earned it, why should he care for mages like u guys who want to earn it too? Just buy it with gold lul, screw ur effort right?

In other words, this “I earned it its mine” is like kids in kindergarden with their toys. That mindset is the real greedy mindset, as u are the reason ur fellow clanmates will not be as well geared as they could be, solely for ur own selfish desires. U are one individual in a large group of individuals, like u crave to have importance as an individual different than the rest, each and every other individual is important too. Ur mindset makes u feel like ur the most important one, cus u want ur desires on the expense of others who worked hard for ur “hard earned gear”. The idea of a clan is teamwork, u help me, I help u. Not I help u, u flip me off and sell the gear I helped u get.

Just stop being selfish 4heads

Same argument could be made against the clan in question. If a player wants to leave to the rival clan because he/she isn’t having fun anymore then why should they have to return gear? Why would they get a bad label for doing so? They worked hard for the clan, provided their services for the clan, and now that they want to leave all the sudden their services are meaningless and the clan wants the gear back to benefit themselves even further? That sounds fairly selfish on the clans behalf.

The whole mindset of “you must return gear when you leave” is a bunch of bs made up by clans to help preserve their power.

And yea, players should be able to sell the gear they earned freely. Not only does it help the ingame economy massively, but it also provides a sense of ownership. You feel less like clan property.

As for the “I joined clan, I earned it, its mine”. Lets see it like that. Ur a mage, u joined clan, another mage had shadow gele wand (firebolt) and now has won void. He doesnt need to return his shadow, he obviously earned it, why should he care for mages like u guys who want to earn it too? Just buy it with gold lul, screw ur effort right?

In other words, this “I earned it its mine” is like kids in kindergarden with their toys. That mindset is the real greedy mindset, as u are the reason ur fellow clanmates will not be as well geared as they could be, solely for ur own selfish desires. U are one individual in a large group of individuals, like u crave to have importance as an individual different than the rest, each and every other individual is important too. Ur mindset makes u feel like ur the most important one, cus u want ur desires on the expense of others who worked hard for ur “hard earned gear”. The idea of a clan is teamwork, u help me, I help u. Not I help u, u flip me off and sell the gear I helped u get.

Just stop being selfish 4heads

Same argument could be made against the clan in question. If a player wants to leave to the rival clan because he/she isn’t having fun anymore then why should they have to return gear? Why would they get a bad label for doing so? They worked hard for the clan, provided their services for the clan, and now that they want to leave all the sudden their services are meaningless and the clan wants the gear back to benefit themselves even further? That sounds fairly selfish on the clans behalf.

The whole mindset of “you must return gear when you leave” is a bunch of bs made up by clans to help preserve their power.

And yea, players should be able to sell the gear they earned freely. Not only does it help the ingame economy massively, but it also provides a sense of ownership. You feel less like clan property.

Thats each to his own. I dont really care anymore when players leave clan with gear and do whatever cus its wasted effort to chase them. Players in clan who dont return gear and hoard/sell, thats already against the rules, and they'll find themselves out. But it doesnt matter, u join a clan with rules, follow the rules.

When u dont enjoy Celtic Heroes anymore, do u sell ur toons and gear for real life money and leave? Why not? U worked hard for them right? But no, cus Celtic Heroes has terms of service, and u will get banned for that. And if u dont get banned, the buyer will get banned, if u still support someone else getting banned for ur misdeeds, that shows the selfishness.

As for the “I joined clan, I earned it, its mine”. Lets see it like that. Ur a mage, u joined clan, another mage had shadow gele wand (firebolt) and now has won void. He doesnt need to return his shadow, he obviously earned it, why should he care for mages like u guys who want to earn it too? Just buy it with gold lul, screw ur effort right?

In other words, this “I earned it its mine” is like kids in kindergarden with their toys. That mindset is the real greedy mindset, as u are the reason ur fellow clanmates will not be as well geared as they could be, solely for ur own selfish desires. U are one individual in a large group of individuals, like u crave to have importance as an individual different than the rest, each and every other individual is important too. Ur mindset makes u feel like ur the most important one, cus u want ur desires on the expense of others who worked hard for ur “hard earned gear”. The idea of a clan is teamwork, u help me, I help u. Not I help u, u flip me off and sell the gear I helped u get.

Just stop being selfish 4heads

Same argument could be made against the clan in question. If a player wants to leave to the rival clan because he/she isn’t having fun anymore then why should they have to return gear? Why would they get a bad label for doing so? They worked hard for the clan, provided their services for the clan, and now that they want to leave all the sudden their services are meaningless and the clan wants the gear back to benefit themselves even further? That sounds fairly selfish on the clans behalf.

The whole mindset of “you must return gear when you leave” is a bunch of bs made up by clans to help preserve their power.

And yea, players should be able to sell the gear they earned freely. Not only does it help the ingame economy massively, but it also provides a sense of ownership. You feel less like clan property.

Thats each to his own. I dont really care anymore when players leave clan with gear and do whatever cus its wasted effort to chase them. Players in clan who dont return gear and hoard/sell, thats already against the rules, and they'll find themselves out. But it doesnt matter, u join a clan with rules, follow the rules.

When u dont enjoy Celtic Heroes anymore, do u sell ur toons and gear for real life money and leave? Why not? U worked hard for them right? But no, cus Celtic Heroes has terms of service, and u will get banned for that. And if u dont get banned, the buyer will get banned, if u still support someone else getting banned for ur misdeeds, that shows the selfishness.

It’s not about breaking the rules. Rules are rules and we all get that. Questioning the logic behind those rules is completely different.

VR doesn’t allow selling accounts or account sharing because it’s a way for someone to cheat the game. They want you to do it the intended way. They also want you to use your own resources to build your own character. Simple business practice. Buying/selling gear is nothing along those lines. There is no right or wrong way to obtain gear as long as it’s done legitimately. Whether that’s through spending your own hard earned gold, farming from a boss, or getting from your clan. The fact that players try to dictate what happens with gear is wrong in my eyes and is why myself and many many others are enjoying Epona so much. It’s why Epona is so well off while other servers are falling downward

Same argument could be made against the clan in question. If a player wants to leave to the rival clan because he/she isn’t having fun anymore then why should they have to return gear? Why would they get a bad label for doing so? They worked hard for the clan, provided their services for the clan, and now that they want to leave all the sudden their services are meaningless and the clan wants the gear back to benefit themselves even further? That sounds fairly selfish on the clans behalf.

The whole mindset of “you must return gear when you leave” is a bunch of bs made up by clans to help preserve their power.

And yea, players should be able to sell the gear they earned freely. Not only does it help the ingame economy massively, but it also provides a sense of ownership. You feel less like clan property.

Thats each to his own. I dont really care anymore when players leave clan with gear and do whatever cus its wasted effort to chase them. Players in clan who dont return gear and hoard/sell, thats already against the rules, and they'll find themselves out. But it doesnt matter, u join a clan with rules, follow the rules.

When u dont enjoy Celtic Heroes anymore, do u sell ur toons and gear for real life money and leave? Why not? U worked hard for them right? But no, cus Celtic Heroes has terms of service, and u will get banned for that. And if u dont get banned, the buyer will get banned, if u still support someone else getting banned for ur misdeeds, that shows the selfishness.

It’s not about breaking the rules. Rules are rules and we all get that. Questioning the logic behind those rules is completely different.

VR doesn’t allow selling accounts or account sharing because it’s a way for someone to cheat the game. They want you to do it the intended way. They also want you to use your own resources to build your own character. Simple business practice. Buying/selling gear is nothing along those lines. There is no right or wrong way to obtain gear as long as it’s done legitimately. Whether that’s through spending your own hard earned gold, farming from a boss, or getting from your clan. The fact that players try to dictate what happens with gear is wrong in my eyes and is why myself and many many others are enjoying Epona so much. It’s why Epona is so well off while other servers are falling downward

Ascension has the no selling gear policy.

It's not that the clan "owns" it, but it is a group effort to obtain it and it's about helping your fellow clannies vs making a profit.

Lets use me for an example: I show up and win a rogue drop, but there's several other rogues there that also put in the time and effort to come .. so if I get that upgrade, of course I'm going to hand in the the old gear for another rogue to also get an upgrade. It's about strengthening the clan as whole. I wouldn't sell it to another clan member either because I got it only because those same people showed up and helped kill the boss to begin with.

As long as someone is in clan they're expected to follow the rules and not sell inside our outside the clan. Clans with these rules don't believe in people using everyone's hard work to make profit when it could freely go to another member that can put it to use.

One person won a helm and sold it off within an hour for hunter fashion. The other people that attended could have benefitted from the upgrade and were furious and rightly so .. you don't take a drop you don't need to expand your fashion collection. Especially when you wouldn't even have that drop in the first place if it wasn't for a collective group of people working together.

Of course the no selling outside rule exists so gear stays within the clan that worked for gear.

This is both to make sure gear stays on clan members and to maintain a strength position. You don't want to weaken your own clan and strengthen the competition on a competitive server. FYI our competition also follows the same rules and don't sell their gear either. If they did it would make it harder to compete with us.

If someone leaves clan with their gear - we don't ask for it back, even if they go to the competition. If they scammed it (secret alts from banned members for example) then they will get harassed. If they sell clan gear once outside clan they probably won't be accepted back in to win even more gear. Although it's happened before more than I care to admit.

Clan owned gears, is a rule made by dominant clans to hold the drops inside the clan and stop comp clans from getting upgrades. Clan killed the boss so drops is owned by the clan, you cant get that drop If not for the help of clan, I get it. My question is, what If one quit and return all drops back to clan, thats as expected of course. But what If clan disbanded, who Will own the drops in clan bank?

For me, its easy to accept the rule If the leaders of the clan got integrity. But what If the leaders themselves steal drops from bank for self interest, what If the leaders Dont follow the rules they made about the drops like returning old gears? What If leaders themselves are corrupt and Unfair? The so called “clan owned gear” concept is hard to define when leaders themselves are all greedy.

Like I already said, clans need the players just as much as the players need the clan. One can't operate and kill end game bosses without the other. Having a falling out with a clan shouldn't mean you should have to lose all the stuff you worked to earn. Handouts are a totally different thing though, but in my opinion if you have a clan with dkp/akp, and you "bought" the item, in my opinion at that point it's yours because according to the clan based system, you earned it.

Usually these threads are to present how perfect Epona is..... Well it isnt, lets admit it, epona has rules too, not all rules are clean of bias as the system behind the rolls is still voting, and there is no rolls system that isnt also a voting system, and thats just how it is.

Theres no perfect system, once ppl get that mindset clear they'll be far more understanding of one another. Ppl say Epona is perfect so all dom clans must be some greedy monsters whom are after the players to make their game miserable, and clans whom arent rolls and think their system as perfect think Epona is made of players who never got along under the authority of others due selfishness and greed and they want to be able to play only for themselves. Both are extreme mindsets that might have some true cases, Im sure some dom clans or rival clans are made out of greed or desire to affect badly on others on the game, although not fully, and Im sure some in Epona are ex-dom clan players who rather didnt get along with the authority of that clan and whatever other clans they were in as they were having selfish mindsets and cared for themselves, but these dont represent neither sides and thats what ppl need to understand.

If ppl truly think their system is perfect, thats their first flaw and most major one, because if u never acknowledge ur own flaws u will never be able to stop them from affecting u and everyone else. Epona isnt perfect, it never was, it never will be. It had many issues, it still does, it will always have. If ppl get that "Epona is perfect" out of their mindset they'll stop having to chase other servers and constantly telling them that they're falling downwards/they're greedy/whatever other insult comes from players who were part of dom clans themselves and just didnt like it and are clearly biased.

Its fine to discuss about the logic standing behind rules, but just because we discuss it still doesnt mean that the statement "If you dont like the rules, dont join them" doesnt stand. Everyone is required to read the rules upon joining and agreeing to them, if you treat them like Terms of Service then just dont get surprised when u get punished, its really simple, and VR/OTM will not act differently than dom clans would with their rules.

Epona system is not perfect, the system is unfair to hardcore players (boring if you like competition), good for casuals and rewards luck/wealth over effort.

Voting is probably the worst system, rife with corruption and subjective opinions, generally it comes down to who is friends with who or who do you see the most online during your time zone.

DKP is a fair system in the way that it rewards the hardcore players for being active and helping out the most, but it discourages casuals who don't want to treat the game as a job.

This is an interesting thread! I’m in the same place as LadyNymeria and Criminal. Disclaimer: I’m a lead in a clan with a strong “clan gear” culture.

The fundamental idea of clan gear is that if the clan as a whole obtained the gear, then it’s use should benefit the clan as a whole. Most clans with a clan gear concept have rules that require gear to be returned when it is upgraded, so it may be given to other members of the clan in a trickle-down model. You do not sell the gear to other clans etc.

If you leave such a clan wearing your gear, there’s not much anyone can do, so it’s typically written off. Those who leave, we wish them well. If they don’t return their gear, so be it. But as the person leaving, don’t expect to sell the gear, then rejoin the clan for a second helping. If they want to come back, they need to return the gear they took or replace it. There’s no need for harassment of leavers, but equally there’s no need for exploiting the work of others. There’s no grounds for someone who leaves with their gear to claim that not letting them back in for seconds is somehow cruel or locking them out of the game.

I see comments saying “I got paid in dkp, like a salary”. I don’t think of a clan as a business arrangement. I think of it as a community. You’re not being paid in dkp or gear; you’re part of a team. Imagine a sports team where everyone puts in time to play, and money to get equipment. It would be a bit odd if one member of the team went and sold that equipment and kept the money. It would be even weirder if they expected to still play on the team. If you insist on using the analogy of the workplace, you can’t go and sell your office computer and phone. Just because something is on your person doesn’t mean it is right to be able to dispose of it as you wish.

Those who say “its my property and I can do what I like with it”; try selling food, energy, medicine, legal advice or financial services in the real world. You will find that there are stringent rules about what you can and can’t do with your real world property, and those rules are put there (ostensibly) for the protection of all. All societies in the real world have constraints on what property is and how it can be disposed. Why wouldn’t you expect the same in the societies we create in a game world?

The reason I like this thread is it highlights the difference between the private property model, and the clan-ownership model. And this is the real difference between the free server idea and others. Free Servers still have rules, and power, and control. Some people are blacklisted from rolling, and someone has to decide who is and who isn’t. A free server is effectively a single large dominant clan with no competition at EGB, just like the “Dom Clan” servers or the “Council of Generals” that Taranis used to have. The real difference between “Free Servers” and “Dom Clans” is nothing to do with competition or power or rules which you’ll find whereever you find human beings. It’s that “Free Servers” treat raid boss gear and game progression as tradeable private property, and most “Dom Clans” treat it as public property.

There are clearly advantages and disadvantages to both models.

This is an interesting thread! I’m in the same place as LadyNymeria and Criminal. Disclaimer: I’m a lead in a clan with a strong “clan gear” culture.

The fundamental idea of clan gear is that if the clan as a whole obtained the gear, then it’s use should benefit the clan as a whole. Most clans with a clan gear concept have rules that require gear to be returned when it is upgraded, so it may be given to other members of the clan in a trickle-down model. You do not sell the gear to other clans etc.

If you leave such a clan wearing your gear, there’s not much anyone can do, so it’s typically written off. Those who leave, we wish them well. If they don’t return their gear, so be it. But as the person leaving, don’t expect to sell the gear, then rejoin the clan for a second helping. If they want to come back, they need to return the gear they took or replace it. There’s no need for harassment of leavers, but equally there’s no need for exploiting the work of others. There’s no grounds for someone who leaves with their gear to claim that not letting them back in for seconds is somehow cruel or locking them out of the game.

I see comments saying “I got paid in dkp, like a salary”. I don’t think of a clan as a business arrangement. I think of it as a community. You’re not being paid in dkp or gear; you’re part of a team. Imagine a sports team where everyone puts in time to play, and money to get equipment. It would be a bit odd if one member of the team went and sold that equipment and kept the money. It would be even weirder if they expected to still play on the team. If you insist on using the analogy of the workplace, you can’t go and sell your office computer and phone. Just because something is on your person doesn’t mean it is right to be able to dispose of it as you wish.

Those who say “its my property and I can do what I like with it”; try selling food, energy, medicine, legal advice or financial services in the real world. You will find that there are stringent rules about what you can and can’t do with your real world property, and those rules are put there (ostensibly) for the protection of all. All societies in the real world have constraints on what property is and how it can be disposed. Why wouldn’t you expect the same in the societies we create in a game world?

The reason I like this thread is it highlights the difference between the private property model, and the clan-ownership model. And this is the real difference between the free server idea and others. Free Servers still have rules, and power, and control. Some people are blacklisted from rolling, and someone has to decide who is and who isn’t. A free server is effectively a single large dominant clan with no competition at EGB, just like the “Dom Clan” servers or the “Council of Generals” that Taranis used to have. The real difference between “Free Servers” and “Dom Clans” is nothing to do with competition or power or rules which you’ll find whereever you find human beings. It’s that “Free Servers” treat raid boss gear and game progression as tradeable private property, and most “Dom Clans” treat it as public property.

There are clearly advantages and disadvantages to both models.

I haven't seen anyone advocating for selling gear while still in said clan. I don't think it is really a relevant point to bring up as of course that would detriment the clan by letting the opposition have access to raid gear.
If you leave the clan and do sell your gear then the clan should be entitled to reject you, if you attempt to join again.

If you don't sell the gear it becomes more of a whether the clan wants you back or not rather than an instant reject.