Celtic Heroes

Saying it may catch the larger clans out is being very hopeful and rather naive, as it stands and has been for a few years now end game on CH has pretty much been log to camp when bosses are due. Longer windows just mean more camping and camping is very boring and at times irritating.
Maybe more new players would come and perhaps even stay if end game was actually a viable playing experience rather than the time consuming and boring mess it is and has been for a while.

If I was a new player now and knew how arduous getting to and playing at end game is I really don't think I would bother investing so much time and often money to reach such high levels when the game is only worth playing for a couple of hours maybe every three days.

True, it is somewhat based on being hopeful and partially down to luck.

The alternative is that we have smaller windows which we know from data tend to be monopolized by end game clans, while the argument may be presented that it gives equal opportunities to both clans (Both can schedule their toons to be there at a specific time) the dominant clan is usually dominant for a reason, they have more toons and hit harder. Therefore they are able to schedule more people at a specific time and win the lock.

From recent discussions with players we know the changes to Frozen bosses which were made based on player feedback were both positively and negatively received.
Many are now finding clans camping these bosses and only allowing game progress via joining their clan.

My personal opinion to reduce the bottlenecks for frozen and to a certain extent dl is to alow some form of instance based bosses for these armour quests. They aren't endgame anymore and cause more in game aggrovation than is surely necessary. So maybe have some form of this, keep main raid bosses, aggy, mordi etc as normal but make it easier to get the gear to make lock battles on those other bosses more equal. Perhaps some form of clan based instance with non tradeable drops, other than between the clan in the instance ( this would prevent major clans just creating other clans to farm drops, for the main clan )

True, it is somewhat based on being hopeful and partially down to luck.

The alternative is that we have smaller windows which we know from data tend to be monopolized by end game clans, while the argument may be presented that it gives equal opportunities to both clans (Both can schedule their toons to be there at a specific time) the dominant clan is usually dominant for a reason, they have more toons and hit harder. Therefore they are able to schedule more people at a specific time and win the lock.

From recent discussions with players we know the changes to Frozen bosses which were made based on player feedback were both positively and negatively received.
Many are now finding clans camping these bosses and only allowing game progress via joining their clan.

A lock group consists of 8 toons. It doesnt matter if the secondary clan brings 10 toons and the dominant clan 30 toons, its 8 vs 8. It mostly comes down to fast reflexes. Another advantage secondary clans have is the level lock advantage.

A lock group consists of 8 toons. It doesnt matter if the secondary clan brings 10 toons and the dominant clan 30 toons, its 8 vs 8. It mostly comes down to fast reflexes. Another advantage secondary clans have is the level lock advantage.

To an extent I guess you could say it is 8v8 but if the dom clan has a set time of when to prepare more 8s then there are more chances to lock against the second clan.

True a shorter window would allow the smaller clan to prepare their 8 more effectively but then the larger clan with more resources and toons can do the same.

Consider it this way. Imagine it is a game of chess. One player is very skilled, the other less so but learning.
In lets say 99% of cases the higher skilled player will win unless they themselves make a mistake.
But if we add a little bit of randomness to the game we give further chances to the new player.
We create opportunities.

Now there is a debate on if that randomness is effective and if it has an impact in the game but currently we do have data to support the windows implementation.

Having more groups at a lock battle is not really beneficial as typically the strongest dps characters will all be in one group...it's a bit like suggesting Arsenal have a better chance at winning the FA cup because their second or third team enter it.
How could CH possibly be comparable to chess? I doubt anyone would play chess if you had to turn up to a match and wait many hours before a randomly generated start time and your chances of victory were decided by how good your chess pieces were (which you could only improve by winning games). There is little to no skill required in this game and anyone with a clock can time when a boss is due and camp no matter how long or short the window.
Luxury weapons and armour are useless compared to quest armour and weapons so a secondary clan without much access to these have no chance of out locking a dominant clan, a dominant clan who keep killing quest bosses and gearing more characters therefore becoming stronger and stronger.
I see instances being mentioned quite a bit lately and cannot help but wonder why quest bosses are not instance based or scrap bosses altogether and actually have players completing quests to earn their gear and weapons giving them a good chance at winning a lock battle.

Having more groups at a lock battle is not really beneficial as typically the strongest dps characters will all be in one group...it's a bit like suggesting Arsenal have a better chance at winning the FA cup because their second or third team enter it.
How could CH possibly be comparable to chess? I doubt anyone would play chess if you had to turn up to a match and wait many hours before a randomly generated start time and your chances of victory were decided by how good your chess pieces were (which you could only improve by winning games). There is little to no skill required in this game and anyone with a clock can time when a boss is due and camp no matter how long or short the window.
Luxury weapons and armour are useless compared to quest armour and weapons so a secondary clan without much access to these have no chance of out locking a dominant clan, a dominant clan who keep killing quest bosses and gearing more characters therefore becoming stronger and stronger.
I see instances being mentioned quite a bit lately and cannot help but wonder why quest bosses are not instance based or scrap bosses altogether and actually have players completing quests to earn their gear and weapons giving them a good chance at winning a lock battle.

True but if they have multiple strong DPS teams as compared to the small clans barely one they have more probability of winning.

It is an analogy, much like your football one.
The "randomness" being the window provides chance. The "skill" being the better geared clan.
The dom clan may not be prepared / caught at a bad time allowing the second clan to capitalize.
We reduce the window the same perceived "boosts" to the smaller clan are applied + multiples to the larger dom clan.

http://www.acagamic.com/courses/infr133 ... me-design/

Muldar I see what you guys are trying to get at but its not popular with anyone, in Gwydion atleast.

The non dominant clan aren't always 5-10 people and the dominant clan isn't always 20-30+ people like you guys are thinking it out to be.

Both clans waste hours on end camping and both clans have similar man power, this is making the game less enjoyable, people don't feel like logging much anymore to kill other things and quest because they have to be camped at these raids to have a chance.

I highly suggest you developers to please play endgame for a couple of months. See how endgame toons interact with each other, what's wrong, etc. Test out the long raid window and you'll see the problem.

To reiterate what I said:

Raids have a 36 hour spawn window. Both clans log campers and park their toons at respective raids such as hrung/mord/necro/gele. Someone has the arduous task of watching for the boss to spawn. Note, that since most toons are parked at these bosses they neglect the other bosses, which means LESS DL/EDL bosses are killed, which in result means less plat items used, less revenue for OTM

Why not decrease the spawn window to 12 hours? You essentially cut camping time by 2/3, meaning everyone can enjoy the game 66% more. More bosses are killed in the extra 24 hours and you guys make more money as plat items are used, player base is happy.

I would love to see how other worlds are going about this. Do dominant and less dominant clan "stumble" upon these bosses? Or are both clans logging campers for hours on end to have a chance at some upgrades?

A lock group consists of 8 toons. It doesnt matter if the secondary clan brings 10 toons and the dominant clan 30 toons, its 8 vs 8. It mostly comes down to fast reflexes. Another advantage secondary clans have is the level lock advantage.

To an extent I guess you could say it is 8v8 but if the dom clan has a set time of when to prepare more 8s then there are more chances to lock against the second clan.

True a shorter window would allow the smaller clan to prepare their 8 more effectively but then the larger clan with more resources and toons can do the same.

Consider it this way. Imagine it is a game of chess. One player is very skilled, the other less so but learning.
In lets say 99% of cases the higher skilled player will win unless they themselves make a mistake.
But if we add a little bit of randomness to the game we give further chances to the new player.
We create opportunities.

Now there is a debate on if that randomness is effective and if it has an impact in the game but currently we do have data to support the windows implementation.

No offence but thats not a good comparison, doesnt even look like the situation.

Lets take your chess example again. We have the very skilled chess player and the less skilled chess player.

You guys have as solution to increase the time they each get to think about their next move. Both their concentration gets depleted. It doesn't create randomness, both players eventually get tired of the game, and the skilled player will still win due to having more experience, taking less concentration per move thus can play longer without making mistakes.

Then opposed to that you could shorten the play time, so that both parties have to excel in a relative short timewindow. Lets compare this to a chess game as speed chess. Even an experienced player is more likely to make mistakes when they dont have enough time to prepare.

Muldar I see what you guys are trying to get at but its not popular with anyone, in Gwydion atleast.

The non dominant clan aren't always 5-10 people and the dominant clan isn't always 20-30+ people like you guys are thinking it out to be.

Both clans waste hours on end camping and both clans have similar man power, this is making the game less enjoyable, people don't feel like logging much anymore to kill other things and quest because they have to be camped at these raids to have a chance.

I highly suggest you developers to please play endgame for a couple of months. See how endgame toons interact with each other, what's wrong, etc. Test out the long raid window and you'll see the problem.

To reiterate what I said:

Raids have a 36 hour spawn window. Both clans log campers and park their toons at respective raids such as hrung/mord/necro/gele. Someone has the arduous task of watching for the boss to spawn. Note, that since most toons are parked at these bosses they neglect the other bosses, which means LESS DL/EDL bosses are killed, which in result means less plat items used, less revenue for OTM

Why not decrease the spawn window to 12 hours? You essentially cut camping time by 2/3, meaning everyone can enjoy the game 66% more. More bosses are killed in the extra 24 hours and you guys make more money as plat items are used, player base is happy.

I would love to see how other worlds are going about this. Do dominant and less dominant clan "stumble" upon these bosses? Or are both clans logging campers for hours on end to have a chance at some upgrades?

The 20 - 30 was an extreme example, Dom clans also have the option of a smaller group with better gear on locker toons.

Not saying there is not an argument for shorter windows, my previous posts have only been explanations of why we keep them longer, to increase the window of chance.

Design just have to take into consideration the ramifications of changes such as these due to the evidence collected.