Celtic Heroes

In the bid system the top 3 most active rogues would get drops instead of just one.

Ideally that's what you want, but bidding, in nature, is unpredictable, that's not a guaranteed scenario. A 4th less active rogue can outbid your top 3 if the top 3 don't want to spend all their points.

This way each can pay what they are willing to pay. For the 4th rogue the drop may mean more so it will pay all of its DKP, as for the 3rd rogue it may not mean that much so it will pay less. This way the drops go for not only activity but how much it will help the toons (need and wants play in).
For example suppose a mage has an imperial necral ring of burial (+90 foc dex 900 firemagic), another has a royal (+80/800) and another has a mighty (+60/600). All are relativly active, the mage with the imperial is the most active but the mage with the royal is fairly active, the mage with the mighty joined only a month and a half ago and is just as active as the royal mage. The mage with the imperial has 36k dkp, royal has 25k, and mighty guy has 12k. Because the boost for the imperial guy is only 10/100 it is not worth that much dkp to him. Even though he could easily outbid the others and win the ring he won't want to spend that much to claim it. For the royal mage the buff is pretty decent so he will most likely be willing to spend a good amount. The mighty mage is as you can guess prepared to go all in for the ring. Because of this the Royal mage ends up getting the ring for 10k DKP. He is just barely under the activity of the imperial mage so there is no protest, yet because the imperial mage already has the tier below he isn't willing to spend over 1/3 his dkp on the drop.
Thus it is fair overall because the drop isn't just going to an active member but to the member that it best helps. Bidding allows for needs/wants to play into the system for drop handouts.

Edit: messed up quoting sorry lol, forum nub

If this was my clan I'd prefer that the most active Mage be able to put the imperial to good use and not be punished (in a way) for spending his/her "points" on a royal brace before hand. The second most active could upgrade to the first mage's old royal and so on down the line.

For example suppose a mage has an imperial necral ring of burial (+90 foc dex 900 firemagic), another has a royal (+80/800) and another has a mighty (+60/600). All are relativly active, the mage with the imperial is the most active but the mage with the royal is fairly active, the mage with the mighty joined only a month and a half ago and is just as active as the royal mage. The mage with the imperial has 36k dkp, royal has 25k, and mighty guy has 12k. Because the boost for the imperial guy is only 10/100 it is not worth that much dkp to him. Even though he could easily outbid the others and win the ring he won't want to spend that much to claim it. For the royal mage the buff is pretty decent so he will most likely be willing to spend a good amount. The mighty mage is as you can guess prepared to go all in for the ring. Because of this the Royal mage ends up getting the ring for 10k DKP. He is just barely under the activity of the imperial mage so there is no protest, yet because the imperial mage already has the tier below he isn't willing to spend over 1/3 his dkp on the drop.
Thus it is fair overall because the drop isn't just going to an active member but to the member that it best helps. Bidding allows for needs/wants to play into the system for drop handouts.

I assume you're talking about a Godly Burial ring being up for bid.

In our upgrade system, the most active mage will get to upgrade their ring to the Godly. The imperial will be given to the next most active one, and the third most active will receive the royal. Then the mighty will be given out to anyone else who want it. Everyone wins. Blue is right. It's not someone's fault a royal or imperial dropped first.

Of course that is oversimplifying it.

We actually use a Total Points vs Gear Taken priority system (also known as EP/GP). If, say, Imperial rings cost 1,000 points and Royal rings cost 500 points, and if the most active mage has 2 imperial rings, and the second most active only has one royal, then the priority for the first mage is 36k/2k = 18. The priority for the second mage is 25k/500 = 50. It means that the second mage has not been rewarded enough compared to the first mage, because his Points to Loot ratio is higher. In this scenario, a simple EP/GP system will reward the Godly to the second mage. Thus first one will have 2x Imperial and second one will have 1x Godly + 1Royal. (That is assuming there are no upgrade policies implemented.)

One thing I liked about EP/GP is that it is purely objective. There are no random factors or any collusion going on, and it pretty much removes the burden from our members to think about how much they are willing to bid to get an item they "really, really want", or "just want", or because "i don't like this guy, I'll outbid him no matter what, even if I don't need it"

For example suppose a mage has an imperial necral ring of burial (+90 foc dex 900 firemagic), another has a royal (+80/800) and another has a mighty (+60/600). All are relativly active, the mage with the imperial is the most active but the mage with the royal is fairly active, the mage with the mighty joined only a month and a half ago and is just as active as the royal mage. The mage with the imperial has 36k dkp, royal has 25k, and mighty guy has 12k. Because the boost for the imperial guy is only 10/100 it is not worth that much dkp to him. Even though he could easily outbid the others and win the ring he won't want to spend that much to claim it. For the royal mage the buff is pretty decent so he will most likely be willing to spend a good amount. The mighty mage is as you can guess prepared to go all in for the ring. Because of this the Royal mage ends up getting the ring for 10k DKP. He is just barely under the activity of the imperial mage so there is no protest, yet because the imperial mage already has the tier below he isn't willing to spend over 1/3 his dkp on the drop.
Thus it is fair overall because the drop isn't just going to an active member but to the member that it best helps. Bidding allows for needs/wants to play into the system for drop handouts.

I assume you're talking about a Godly Burial ring being up for bid.

In our upgrade system, the most active mage will get to upgrade their ring to the Godly. The imperial will be given to the next most active one, and the third most active will receive the royal. Then the mighty will be given out to anyone else who want it. Everyone wins. Blue is right. It's not someone's fault a royal or imperial dropped first.

Of course that is oversimplifying it.

We actually use a Total Points vs Gear Taken priority system (also known as EP/GP). If, say, Imperial rings cost 1,000 points and Royal rings cost 500 points, and if the most active mage has 2 imperial rings, and the second most active only has one royal, then the priority for the first mage is 36k/2k = 18. The priority for the second mage is 25k/500 = 50. It means that the second mage has not been rewarded enough compared to the first mage, because his Points to Loot ratio is higher. In this scenario, a simple EP/GP system will reward the Godly to the second mage. Thus first one will have 2x Imperial and second one will have 1x Godly + 1Royal. (That is assuming there are no upgrade policies implemented.)

One thing I liked about EP/GP is that it is purely objective. There are no random factors or any collusion going on, and it pretty much removes the burden from our members to think about how much they are willing to bid to get an item they "really, really want", or "just want", or because "i don't like this guy, I'll outbid him no matter what, even if I don't need it"

that system that would be more fair. Sounds a lot more difficult to set up. If I'm correct Resurence is a much newer clan than Avalon. But In both of our systems the same conclusion happened. Just different paths to get to it.

For example suppose a mage has an imperial necral ring of burial (+90 foc dex 900 firemagic), another has a royal (+80/800) and another has a mighty (+60/600). All are relativly active, the mage with the imperial is the most active but the mage with the royal is fairly active, the mage with the mighty joined only a month and a half ago and is just as active as the royal mage. The mage with the imperial has 36k dkp, royal has 25k, and mighty guy has 12k. Because the boost for the imperial guy is only 10/100 it is not worth that much dkp to him. Even though he could easily outbid the others and win the ring he won't want to spend that much to claim it. For the royal mage the buff is pretty decent so he will most likely be willing to spend a good amount. The mighty mage is as you can guess prepared to go all in for the ring. Because of this the Royal mage ends up getting the ring for 10k DKP. He is just barely under the activity of the imperial mage so there is no protest, yet because the imperial mage already has the tier below he isn't willing to spend over 1/3 his dkp on the drop.
Thus it is fair overall because the drop isn't just going to an active member but to the member that it best helps. Bidding allows for needs/wants to play into the system for drop handouts.

I assume you're talking about a Godly Burial ring being up for bid.

In our upgrade system, the most active mage will get to upgrade their ring to the Godly. The imperial will be given to the next most active one, and the third most active will receive the royal. Then the mighty will be given out to anyone else who want it. Everyone wins. Blue is right. It's not someone's fault a royal or imperial dropped first.

Of course that is oversimplifying it.

We actually use a Total Points vs Gear Taken priority system (also known as EP/GP). If, say, Imperial rings cost 1,000 points and Royal rings cost 500 points, and if the most active mage has 2 imperial rings, and the second most active only has one royal, then the priority for the first mage is 36k/2k = 18. The priority for the second mage is 25k/500 = 50. It means that the second mage has not been rewarded enough compared to the first mage, because his Points to Loot ratio is higher. In this scenario, a simple EP/GP system will reward the Godly to the second mage. Thus first one will have 2x Imperial and second one will have 1x Godly + 1Royal. (That is assuming there are no upgrade policies implemented.)

One thing I liked about EP/GP is that it is purely objective. There are no random factors or any collusion going on, and it pretty much removes the burden from our members to think about how much they are willing to bid to get an item they "really, really want", or "just want", or because "i don't like this guy, I'll outbid him no matter what, even if I don't need it"

that system that would be more fair. Sounds a lot more difficult to set up. If I'm correct Resurence is a much newer clan than Avalon. But In both of our systems the same conclusion happened. Just different paths to get to it.

The only thing I like more about a bid system is the individual player decides how much the item is worth and how much items r worth can naturally change over time instead of everything being fixed.

The only thing I like more about a bid system is the individual player decides how much the item is worth and how much items r worth can naturally change over time instead of everything being fixed.

...which screws up early buyers even more.

I remember during our first couple Gelebron kills a mighty natures touch ring dropped and every druid wanted it. We didn't know how common nature touch rings were, so if we had a bidding system, our active druids would've likely paid more for mighty touch rings than higher tier rings. I'm not a fan of random/variable costs. lower tiers should always cost less than higher tier items, but that's not always the case when items are auctioned off.

Of course items eventually become obsolete when better item comes out (quite rare in CH but it does happen), the price could always be adjusted when it does.

The only thing I like more about a bid system is the individual player decides how much the item is worth and how much items r worth can naturally change over time instead of everything being fixed.

...which screws up early buyers even more.

I remember during our first couple Gelebron kills a mighty natures touch ring dropped and every druid wanted it. We didn't know how common nature touch rings were, so if we had a bidding system, our active druids would've likely paid more for mighty touch rings than higher tier rings. I'm not a fan of random/variable costs. lower tiers should always cost less than higher tier items, but that's not always the case when items are auctioned off.

Doesn't screw uo early buyers... You can either wait or buy right ahead... Costs should change with time. For example when mordy first came out everyone wanted a void halb, now void vit halbs r only needed by a few tanks. Sometimes they even get banked. Why should they cost the same amount now that they did a when mordy first came out. bidding allows for prices to change over time with demand. If you want to beat the crowd why shouldn't you have to pay more? It doesn't screw older buyers, rather it rewards those that are willing to wait and let others go first.

Of course items eventually become obsolete when better item comes out (quite rare in CH but it does happen), the price could always be adjusted when it does.

But this means some group of people, going to assume leaders, decide prices. Instead of letting natural change from market (supply demand) shape prices its some abstract principle of whenever gens/leaders think its appropriate. bidding takes control of prices and who gets what away from leaders and puts it into the hands of the clan as a whole. That is why i prefer it. With bidding generals have very little say over who gets what over than for controlling if inactive players can bid, what defines an active player, and how many points each boss awards, and what classes can bid on what.

This keeps system more fair for clan as a whole.

it rewards those that are willing to wait and let others go first.

We can just agree to disagree. Because to me that is a b.s. Why is that a good thing? Why reward those willing to wait or hoard their points? Why penalize the ones who uses their points so that the item can be used now for the good of the clan, and enable your clan to kill more and ergo, get more items?

I concede that auction/bidding systems have their place in dkp systems. It is easy and it seems fair to the new guy or the guy who is less active, because they get a chance to compete against veterans or very active members.
In our EP/GP system, if you're not active enough compared to the top guys, you have no chance getting the good items "first". Everyone does get a turn eventually once those at the top get powerful items (or enough items) so that their Points-to-loot ratio goes below the rest.

But if your clan is tracking attendance and giving points for the purpose of being "fair and objective" in distributing loot, then I'd always contend that auction/bidding type of distribution is counter-intuitive to that very purpose.

it rewards those that are willing to wait and let others go first.

We can just agree to disagree. Because to me that is a b.s. Why is that a good thing? Why reward those willing to wait or hoard their points? Why penalize the ones who uses their points so that the item can be used now for the good of the clan, and enable your clan to kill more and ergo, get more items?

I concede that auction/bidding systems have their place in dkp systems. It is easy and it seems fair to the new guy or the guy who is less active, because they get a chance to compete against veterans or very active members.
In our EP/GP system, if you're not active enough compared to the top guys, you have no chance getting the good items "first". Everyone does get a turn eventually once those at the top get powerful items (or enough items) so that their Points-to-loot ratio goes below the rest.

But if your clan is tracking attendance and giving points for the purpose of being "fair and objective" in distributing loot, then I'd always contend that auction/bidding type of distribution is counter-intuitive to that very purpose.

Agree to disagree then.

Hopefully our discussion has given the origional poster of this thread enough info on DKP lol... (probably more than he asked for )

I disagree bidding helps the 'new guy' EP/GP does that much better.

I have experienced both EP/GP and traditional bidding methods, with the traditional bidding the clan veterens have ammassed a years worth+ of points waiting for that once-a-haileys-comet drop which is extremely daunting for new players.

For example in my previous clan I had 13500 DKP where the most dkp you can get at once is 60 from Necro, would take at least 6 months+ to catch up to that if I was completely inactive. I actually did go inactive for 4-5 months and when i returned I went from 1st in DKP to 3rd which shows just how broken a system is that doesn't enable active new players to catch up.

This is why decay and EP/GP works so well.

I much more prefer the decay system, it helps for a few mains reasons.

1. It encourages new players to come to endgame because looking at a 15k point dkp lead can look like an impossible task for a new player and it basically is.

2. It allows players to get decent/average gear and not set them back so much that they will not get anything good. Usually the people with the highest dkp have already average and above average gear so they can hoard points waiting for the really good drop. But someone who hasn't been there long can wait and hoard points and get 1 good thing (assuming they can catch up in most instances they cant) or bid on the low tier items.

I've tried both EP/GP is defiantly better in my opinion.