Celtic Heroes

Sorry aileron but ur system seems massively complicated, i can see its very advanced and you obviously put in a lot of work to keep it going but it does seems to be rather over the top. Of the systems i have seen, Dkp does seem to be the most efficient depsite the variation each clan has. It works well on our server and most people seem to understand it which means that the players know whats happening with their dkp.

Sorry aileron but ur system seems massively complicated, i can see its very advanced and you obviously put in a lot of work to keep it going but it does seems to be rather over the top. Of the systems i have seen, Dkp does seem to be the most efficient depsite the variation each clan has. It works well on our server and most people seem to understand it which means that the players know whats happening with their dkp.

It's not really. It''s the same as any other DKP system in such that we track the raids and loot just like any other clan who uses a DKP system. The difference is we have points decay which addresses the usual issues of point hoarding and point inflation. In fact the EPGP system has been in use for many years in other MMOs such as World of Warcraft by guilds who have realized that a Flat DKP or Auction DKP system just isn't the best one out there. I didn't invent EPGP, it's been already out there for years, I just adapted it for use in our clan.

For more info:

http://www.worldofmatticus.com/how-epgp-works/
http://www.epgpweb.com/help/system
http://www.wowwiki.com/EPGP

The fact that our website is hosted in Guildlaunch that provides a free tool to manage DKP system in EPGP format makes it easy to administer. It's the merits of EPGP that attracted me, as I've experienced many DKP system in the past that just didn't solve many problems that I've mentioned already, but EPGP did.

Sorry aileron but ur system seems massively complicated, i can see its very advanced and you obviously put in a lot of work to keep it going but it does seems to be rather over the top. Of the systems i have seen, Dkp does seem to be the most efficient depsite the variation each clan has. It works well on our server and most people seem to understand it which means that the players know whats happening with their dkp.

It's not really. It''s the same as any other DKP system in such that we track the raids and loot just like any other clan who uses a DKP system. The difference is we have points decay which addresses the usual issues of point hoarding and point inflation. In fact the EPGP system has been in use for many years in other MMOs such as World of Warcraft by guilds who have realized that a Flat DKP or Auction DKP system just isn't the best one out there. I didn't invent EPGP, it's been already out there for years, I just adapted it for use in our clan.

For more info:

http://www.worldofmatticus.com/how-epgp-works/
http://www.epgpweb.com/help/system
http://www.wowwiki.com/EPGP

Appreciate the reason why u would want points to 'decay' to discourage inactivity/ hoarding but surely if u earned ur dkp points u shud b able to use them dkp points

I never claimed our dkp system is the perfect system nor the best there is. However, I think it does address a lot of weaknesses inherent in other dkp systems. I really don't want to rehash everything I've said already, but perhaps I can give a summary.

Traditional or Flat DKP systems (earn points from raids and subtract fixed number points when you get gear) have three major issues:

- Point Inflation
- Point hoarding
- Hard for new members/recruit to compete vs. veterans

Minor issues would be:
- People who have lots of points but don't spend a lot feel it's wasted
- Hard to figure out item values especially when you don't know what a new boss will drop

Bidding/Auction systems (earn points from raids, subtract points based on a member's bid) have the following major issues:

- Point hoarding
- Imbalanced distribution of loot
- Collusion (e.g. warriors may agree to limit dkp bids to a minimum on warrior only items so they have more dkp to spend on multi-class items)

Minor issues would be:
- Raid composition is a big factor esp. when there is only one bidder and can get item for almost nothing, but in a prior raid a bidding war occurred driving the price up.
- Not everyone likes bidding wars or auctions
- Takes a long time to resolve who wins the loot

Point hoarding can take many forms such as passing on every item (even if it's an upgrade), waiting for that rare void/godly item to drop, or passing on old loot from Aggy so you can hoard points for Mordris/Hrung bracers, etc. Eventually the clan bank gets filled with many items that can be useful and considered upgrades and they all go to waste, especially in CH where there are a lot of low level tiers (dark, mighty, grand etc.) for the same item types, from the same boss - but people, of course, will always want the highest tier.

There are other types of dkp systems such as Zero-Sum DKP, Probabilistic DKP, etc. that I won't get into. Suffice to say, I studied them all, and I found that our adapted EP/GP system is what works for us, our style of gameplay and the CH environment. Yes, it does take some work to properly administer, and if your clan does not want to deal with it and bidding works for you, that's fine. But the OP asked what's the fairest way, and auction/bidding isn't it.

Ail I'm totally not following your system. It still promotes point hoarding. I joined your clan and 3 months pass and i didnt bid on anything and finally a void mord helm drops. We both attended the same amount of bosses but u bid on a crap hrung helm of whatever. I hoarded my EP or whatever u call them and still get the item. It's still hoarding either way. The major difference i strongly dislike in your system is how first hrung rogue dmg attack brace drops... It would be bid high as hell as u dont see the rarity. A year passes to now it would be half that. How can u simply say a hrung dmg attack brace is the same points as something else or more or else. It would strictly be opinion.

Yes, that happens. In every dkp system in existence, if someone refuses to spend points and waits long enough - and they are active as the rest of the other players - then they will eventually be on top of the standings and can get whatever they want. I think it's still fair to give someone as active who hasn't gotten anything yet to eventually get first pick. We don't do any bidding btw, I'm not sure I understand your point about the first attack bracer would have a high bid price. (?).

BUT....remember we have points decay. There will come a time when the points decay overtakes your points earned. Here is an example for me:

I haven't taken a Hrungnir drop since Feb 2014, so I've been accumulating a lot of points (having 100% Hrungnir attendance). We earn 80 points per Hrungnir raid, but as you can see, my points drop over 90 points. Thus I'm losing points every raid so it would be smarter for me to spend my points on something, otherwise, I'll just continue to bleed points and others will eventually catch up to me.

Also remember, points decay also applies to Gear. Thus whatever you spent on gear 6 months ago would have decayed to almost nothing, so your priority goes up as you earn more EP and would return to original levels. Compared to a person who hasn't taken anything in 6 months, and assuming you have the same amount of EP, your priority will be equal again.

Morrigan however, the clan members don't seem to know what going on. In Retribution there are officers keeping attendance and taking pictures.

Lol, where did you get this? Just because Pigman was inaccurate in how PR was calculated and leaves it up to the system, doesn't mean they don't know how officers take screenshots to get attendance. We have screenshots of attendance in EVERY raid. Snorri, Rockhide, Athach's Spawn, Natan, you name it.... I can even tell you exactly how many Prince Corvax bosses I've killed

You said that "its funny that not many Avalon members know how it actually works", Taking attendance and pictures is good and all, but class captains know the math and the ins and outs since they have to use attendance, effort, and priority points to give gear to their corresponding class.

Its not just the chieftain doing everything, if I was in your clan I would actually feel bad and try to split the work.

So I take it "not many" means "NO ONE" to you?

I think for the most part, Ava members know they earn points by attending raids, they get loot if they're active enough. For most, that's really enough. No one really has to pay attention exactly how many points they have because they don't need to bid. They don't need to worry priorities or someone "stealing" a drop by manipulating the system. All they need to do is say "I'm in for xxxxxx", and I check the standings and give it to whoever has highest priority.

They can check their standings, anytime. Some do. A lot don't. And I don't think it's not caring about the system, but moreso that most don't care who gets the loot as long as someone active in the clan gets it. The clan gets stronger regardless, I think we have achieved a measure of clan-first mentality that have superseded all my experience in the past clans or guilds I've been in. They know everyone will each have their turn and as long as we keep on raiding, they will. I'd like to invite any Ava member who doesn't feel this way and tell me I'm wrong.

I do most of the work, by choice, because I'd like to see what's going on first-hand. When I go off on vacation, officers do take over, and everyone else pitches in taking attendance, not just one or two people. The math is done by the system, that's why people don't need to calculate anything manually so yeah, some don't even bother to memorize the equations, just like people these days don't know anyone's phone numbers, the iphone does everything.

So I take it "not many" means "EVERYONE" to you?

I think for the most part, Ava members know they earn points by attending raids, they get loot if they're active enough. For most, that's really enough. No one really has to pay attention exactly how many points they have because they don't need to bid. They don't need to worry priorities or someone "stealing" a drop by manipulating the system. All they need to do is say "I'm in for xxxxxx", and I check the standings and give it to whoever has highest priority.

They can check their standings, anytime. Some do. A lot don't. And I don't think it's not caring about the system, but moreso that most don't care who gets the loot as long as someone active in the clan gets it. The clan gets stronger regardless, I think we have achieved a measure of clan-first mentality that have superseded all my experience in the past clans or guilds I've been in. They know everyone will each have their turn and as long as we keep on raiding, they will. I'd like to invite any Ava member who doesn't feel this way and tell me I'm wrong.

I do most of the work, by choice, because I'd like to see what's going on first-hand. When I go off on vacation, officers do take over, and everyone else pitches in taking attendance, not just one or two people. The math is done by the system, that's why people don't need to calculate anything manually so yeah, some don't even bother to memorize the equations, just like people these days don't know anyone's phone numbers, the iphone does everything.

Fair enough, but having one person generally controlling the system can be unsettling. Of course, I'm sure all your members trust you with their accounts themselves, but its the internet and people can lie and get away with it. Say you manipulated the system/helped a member you liked better get more points therefore gear.

There should be at least 5 other people checking out the equations and math and making sure everything is going fairly if you know what I mean.

Eh, I don't "control" the system. I'm more like the "data entry person". I'm not infallible and I make mistakes. Sometimes I miss someone because they are on an alt or they dc during the screenshot, etc. It's up to the members ensure they get proper credit and they get charged the right amount of points. Everything is plain to see in our website. I don't have a "secret spreadsheet" tucked away someplace.

Being in the clan for a couple years , yes you may think he is "controlling" but he is the most fair clan leader ive met in my mmo experience.

And speaking as a clan member , i do not worry about points because raiding is fun and i enjoy seeing others get loot just as much as if i got loot. We have established a clan first mentality where everyone works towards uplifting the clan , not members. We all praise those who get loot and most often even pass it to others rather than be selfish. If a great item drops some of us even pass on the item to essentially give it to another clanny we all want to see have the item. It just is unique how positive and encouraging our clan is, it truly is something to marvel at. I never worry about "fighting" clannies for loot , we all know theres more to be had and the family atmosphere we have created.

Pdizz you completely misread everything completely... If u read what I wrote i understand completely its not bidding. I apologize i dont know your technical term for asking to own the item that has droped so i called it bidding bcuz technically you still are. U say u want it and then someone else who has better EP is gonna get it just the same as dkp so its a mute point your arguing u can call it what u want but your still essentially bidding just not in auction style. But next time clarify with the word not come off like someone is stupid.