Celtic Heroes

I have been testing out the H2H built for a while and I came to the conclusion that it isn’t as good as what some are saying.

To put it simply
H2H damage with golden blade
205 dmg, 1337 H2H ability
Diamond Icon (55 crush) with golden blade
466 dmg, 1386 Totem ability

While it hits very fast, it does not hit fast enough to compensate for the 261 damage difference. For this much damage difference, it really has to hit twice as fast but it doesnt.

I have also been duelling different classes, actually more on testing. Basically without using any spells and asking them to just stand still, I always kill them faster with Diamond icon + GB compared to H2H + GB. Time difference varies between 5 secs to 11 secs odd.
Perhaps this built is still feasible for low to mid-levels but once you are able to equip the diamond icon at lv 80, I feel icon is still better? Bear in mind, H2H built was originally meant for mages which works for them as their main weapon being magic is not multiplied by strength whereas our main weapon being crush is. So with any further updates, our main weapon crushing damage should increase (I hope), further increasing the damage difference on H2H built

I could be wrong with my suggestion; welcome to any opinions but so far that’s how I look at it.

Need Earthstone or better dmg gear to really make it worth more than interrupt value. The more the better... Armor, helmet, offhand, bracelets, rings, neck... If you can. Are you using dmg gear beyond an offhand? The Mage build is based on that. The elemental dmg gear is not effected by str, which means more points for other stats. This is also nice because it means you can actually solo in a heal build if you want. Put in a pure dps build it is pretty amazing for me so far. I have used the dmg gear with the diamond totem on the pure dps Druid. It does not seem as good to me. I will look at it more closely. I am kind of judging value based on how long it takes something to die compared with buff cycles, and what kind of shape the toon is in at the end of the fight. I also like the interrupts from h2h.

It is also worth considering the effect of mid fight casting rotations on various auto attack speeds.

I don't think these builds are for everyone and I would not use them on all my toons even if I could.

Need Earthstone or better dmg gear to really make it worth more than interrupt value. The more the better... Armor, helmet, offhand, bracelets, rings, neck... If you can. Are you using dmg gear beyond an offhand? The Mage build is based on that. The elemental dmg gear is not effected by str, which means more points for other stats. This is also nice because it means you can actually solo in a heal build if you want. Put in a pure dps build it is pretty amazing for me so far. I have used the dmg gear with the diamond totem on the pure dps Druid. It does not seem as good to me. I will look at it more closely. I am kind of judging value based on how long it takes something to die compared with buff cycles, and what kind of shape the toon is in at the end of the fight. I also like the interrupts from h2h.

It is also worth considering the effect of mid fight casting rotations on various auto attack speeds.

I don't think these builds are for everyone and I would not use them on all my toons even if I could.

ISo again in theory:
H2H + Golden Blade + Radiant Earthstone Greaves + Necklace + BP + Lux Helm
555 damage

Diamond Icon + Golden Blade + Radiant Earthstone Greaves + Necklace + BP + Lux Helm
811 damage

I think this is by far the best damage gear we can gather atm (If I put in damage charms, it be a total different concept). Hummm.. it could be possible H2H attack speed is now able to compensate for the 261 damage difference but I am not sure. Does it? Using yr H2H built as a cast rotation example, being pure vines + H2H + Abundance + Embrace. Yr cast spells is really vines + Embrace during the battle duration. So the impact isnt really that big but it may be the case for standard dps druids who has lighting and storm touch.

I also see some merits in your other suggestions but yes it requires more testing and it be really fruitful if you can let us know your observation in a later stage.

I have a question(s): Did you do this experiment to compensate how others did, compared to how your doing? (By this, i mean, are you experimenting this for leveling purposes, damage, mob interrupts, or for general use?)

Also, what is the difference in damage compared to say, players 10 levels below you or players 10 levels above you, players same level as you. Also same question for mob, 10 levels below, same level, or 150 wyvern (since your 143, i doubt there's a 153 mob now). Also with this list, how well does interruption come into play, does it help to interrupt mob spells one bit?

For leveling purposes, try killing wyverns or mobs you usually kill if you ever went solo, is there a minor or major difference with the same equipment comparison with the icon?

Also, consider, try if you can, experiment the effectivity of the battlestaff compared to say, a diamond icon with golden blade, or whatever offhand you normally level with.
Thank you for your consideration, feedback would be well appreciated as i am curious,

Regards, RoyalSeraphim of Taranis

H2h build. I got an alt druid that I'm lvln with h2h dam. I love the h2h build! It's fun, but it almost has taken some of the challenge away. lvl 93 druid.

I was curious myself so I tried it. Bear in mind the context of this relatively qualitative test (a plat buying clanless druid who generally is only on long enough to solo and rarely bosses). During the test I was level 98 to 106 training on kelpies and the brown and green trees. By the end my relavent gear was (parenthesis is what it started and gear I still swap to for boxing with my war/longer fights)

Head: golden ice damage (energization)
Neck: greater Earthstone (heroic)
Chest: greater Earthstone (diamond)
Hands: golden haste
Legs: greater Earthstone (diamond)
Feet: radiant Earthstone (diamond)
Offhand: golden ice
Main hand: nothing or diamond totem
Bracer: 3 crush
Bracer: mana regen
Rings: 2 greater es birch, +3 embrace +2 natures touch

Skills:
Max embrace, touch, bark,vines
7 in ambundence
Rest added to howling as I leveled (testing to see how it works with a high defense build and really like it so far, my Druid has a 1050 defense)

Abilities (no gear mods) approximate during the test
Str 5
Dex 75
Focus 320
Vit 150

Maxed totem and h2h

My first gear was the es neck and legs. At the time I was around 98 or so and was killing ashborn trees and kelpies. At that point with just the legs and neck it was worse on the kelpies but better on the trees. I'm not sure but my theory is that trees are weaker on fire and stronger on crush than kelpies. At this point I was a bit sad. I then got the es bp. That was around 102. That made it so that h2h was better on any 1 star or 2 star (was on green trees and kelpies at this point) but for 3 stars the totem was better because I needed to stop and heal a lot and the 200 nature helped with vines damage which became a greater portion of the damage. It wasn't huge but noticeable. Now at 106 with the helm I only use h2h (except to raise totem skill) except against 4 stars like leaflords and deep callers. That is because I I mostly in dot and heal mode so I drop almost all of my Earthstone gear for resists and mana regen.

At 106 on 1 stars with totem vs h2h starting casting vines and embrace (while the tree is casting its embrace and root) with h2h it dies right as vines is blinking. With totem vines drops around 20 to 25 % health. Not insanely huge dps increase but it's something. It's not a broken insane build imo but is a really net resting alternative.

Andren/Aedyr Arawn

Re: H2H Built, does it really rock?
by Andren » Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:10 am

I was curious myself so I tried it. Bear in mind the context of this relatively qualitative test (a plat buying clanless druid who generally is only on long enough to solo and rarely bosses). During the test I was level 98 to 106 training on kelpies and the brown and green trees. By the end my relavent gear was (parenthesis is what it started and gear I still swap to for boxing with my war/longer fights)

Head: golden ice damage (energization)
Neck: greater Earthstone (heroic)
Chest: greater Earthstone (diamond)
Hands: golden haste
Legs: greater Earthstone (diamond)
Feet: radiant Earthstone (diamond)
Offhand: golden ice
Main hand: nothing or diamond totem
Bracer: 3 crush
Bracer: mana regen
Rings: 2 greater es birch, +3 embrace +2 natures touch

Skills:
Max embrace, touch, bark,vines
7 in ambundence
Rest added to howling as I leveled (testing to see how it works with a high defense build and really like it so far, my Druid has a 1050 defense)

Abilities (no gear mods) approximate during the test
Str 5
Dex 75
Focus 320
Vit 150

Maxed totem and h2h

My first gear was the es neck and legs. At the time I was around 98 or so and was killing ashborn trees and kelpies. At that point with just the legs and neck it was worse on the kelpies but better on the trees. I'm not sure but my theory is that trees are weaker on fire and stronger on crush than kelpies. At this point I was a bit sad. I then got the es bp. That was around 102. That made it so that h2h was better on any 1 star or 2 star (was on green trees and kelpies at this point) but for 3 stars the totem was better because I needed to stop and heal a lot and the 200 nature helped with vines damage which became a greater portion of the damage. It wasn't huge but noticeable. Now at 106 with the helm I only use h2h (except to raise totem skill) except against 4 stars like leaflords and deep callers. That is because I I mostly in dot and heal mode so I drop almost all of my Earthstone gear for resists and mana regen.

At 106 on 1 stars with totem vs h2h starting casting vines and embrace (while the tree is casting its embrace and root) with h2h it dies right as vines is blinking. With totem vines drops around 20 to 25 % health. Not insanely huge dps increase but it's something. It's not a broken insane build imo but is a really net resting alternative.

Andren/Aedyr Arawn

I agree with the last sentence.

How can you guys bring up DMG stats without talking about weapon Speed? I know Morph mentioned it at the end but it doesn't really sum up the equational DPS without crunching the numbers. Potentially you could cast vines, lightning Storms touch and then float 15-20 s before casting a heal...though you would I guess still need to choose whether if rocking this kinda Melee DMG you would even cast more lighting or just dps on auto...I would just auto... Using that theory let's break down the two DMG differences using 20 sec.

Isn't that the whole reason to use H2H? Not the DMG but the DPS?

It takes more than 3 seconds to swing a totem, it takes just less than 2 to swing yer fist right? So the DPS or DMG PER SECOND is way more different than what you previously stated.

Your maximum DMG (meaning no misses) using Morph's H2H 555 DMG stat and saying it takes 2sec to swing:
In 20 seconds would be: 5,550 DMG (if you didn't cast, didn't heal etc)
Equation was: 20 sec/2 sec = 10 x 555= 5,550 total DMG in 20 sec


Your maximum DMG (meaning no misses) using Morph's Icon 811 DMG stat and saying it takes 3sec to swing:
In 20 seconds would be: 5,409 DMG (if you didn't cast, didn't heal etc)
Equation was: 20 sec/ 3 sec= 6.67 x 811 = 5,409 total DMG in 20 sec (on average since you don't count .667 of a swing normally)


H2H is 5,550, Icon is 5,409 and that's not even with Haste gloves or an added 30% faster swing. But I don't really wanna do that math right now...so deal with it.

All I am saying is yer math freaking sucks if yer not counting weapon speed. Also some H2H Druids can interupt mob casting using their fists. Rarely happens on golems but I have seen it happen on wraiths and trees, cultists and rarely on ponies.

So agn in theory -

H2H - 555 per 2 sec swing, 5550 per 20 sec swing, 16650 per 1 min swing
Icon - 811 per 3 sec swing, 5409 per 30 sec swing, 16220 per 1 min swing
So the damage difference is 430 after 1 min of wacking which also means its about 180 to 260 when u factor in the resistance.

Benefits of H2H (with full gear)
Additional 180 to 250 damage after 1 min + X% of possible interruptions with 30 swings in a min.

Benefits of Icon
+ 200 nature magic which boosts your overall spells + X% of possible interruptions with 20 swings in a min.

So in conclusion, if you managed to gather all the radiant gears, you will be a monk on steroids. Dealing 180 - 260 additional damage and extra 10 swings in a min as opposed to Icon. However there is a good chance the 180-260 additional damage from H2H may be equal from the + 200 nature magic when you choose to mix this built with damage spells - vines+lighting+storm with Icon. If damage wise is still more or less the same, the only key merit is the 10 additional swings for interruptions and potential energy savings.

Hence, I do agree h2h is workable but I will let you all decide whether it still rocks as it is not a wow factor compared to mage h2h.

PS: Please note this is assuming H2H is really 2 secs to swing while icon is 3 secs. Haste gloves not factored in as the 30% speed would still result in the same increased speed

I have a quite a few thoughts on this topic, most of which have been covered in one form or another upthread. Your weapon (or lack thereof) is part of a really complex system, affected by the following variables:

• weapon speed
• weapon base damage
• weapon bonus damage due to stat multipliers
• weapon proc damage
• any other advantages your get from your weapon (poison or elemental damage, attack bonuses, resistances, skill or stat boosts, etc.)
• your ability with the weapon
• what gear you have, and how it is affected by your stats
• what gear you have to unequip in order to use your weapon (for example, you can't use an offhand item with two-handed weapons)
• whether or not you intend to use skills
• which skills you use in the fight
• whether you intend to switch weapons mid-fight
• your opponent(s), and their attack types and speeds
• which skills (spells) become reduced in effectiveness because of the equipment you're using
• the skills and abilities of your group mates if you're grouped
• how dense the mobs are in your zone, and how likely they are to add themselves to your fight

Yikes! That's a lot of variables. As I mentioned in another thread, bare H2H damage is pretty pathetic: in the 1-5 point range depending on your STR stat and H2H ability. If you're going to go H2H, you definitely need some supplemental gear in order to do damage. If it's damage that you want to do. If you want it purely for the interrupts, then you don't need to worry about this.

As Teaweasel described above, when figuring out the effectiveness of any damage-dealing equipment, you really need to calculate the damage over time. You can't simply look at your damage stat and believe that bigger numbers are better, otherwise the winterking weapons would still be worth something to people other than collectors, and all warriors would wield two-handed hammers. But in addition to the calculation of weapon damage and speed, you also need to look at how often you are going to actually hit your target. Caliban mentioned this weeks or months ago. So although Morphmarfa's theoretical calculation puts H2H ahead by the equivalent of slightly less than one hit in a one-minute fight, you are, in fact, likely to land a lot more hits with H2H because you have more changes to successfully land a hit.

But here are two key factors for druids: interrupts (on the right mobs) and high level main hand books.

I'm still training H2H on my main druid. At level 135, his H2H is only around 570 so he is a poor example. But I've recently discovered when duo training my rogue and support druid (both around level 114) on ghosts, the interrupts help a great deal in reducing the amount of healing that the rogue needs. I suspect that this will be the same when soloing a druid. Right now my druid buffs the rogue with high wards of soldiers and giants and embrace that heals about 115 per tick, and then the rogue wades into the fray. The interrupts with knuckle blades (speed is 1750) or the shoreline dagger (speed is 1520) are so common that sometimes the mob will spend almost the entire fight trying to cast its spells. It might land one or two hits and one or two skills, but these are easily taken care of by the embrace. Which can easily be re-cast in combat. Suffice to say that if no additional mobs attack, it's not uncommon for my rogue to end the fight with a full health bar. I haven't had as much luck interrupting flaming orb from loredancers, or the dragon cultists' blast spell, or meteoric bosses. Of course, the rogue has the advantage of high strength and quite a few pieces of pierce and/or slash damage gear which are amplified by high strength so the comparison isn't exactly equal. But it's worth noting.

What about the high level main hand books? These are dropped by Aggragoth. They are equipped as main hand weapons but treated as H2H. The lowest level one I've seen is the Dark Grimoire of Health and requires you to be level 110 to equip. 5 crushing damage, 100 focus and 100 health, 1750 attack speed. I don't know any druids on Lugh who use their diamond icon once they get one of these. No matter how much focus you have, the extra 100 focus from the grimoire is pretty much guaranteed to boost your spells more than the 200 nature magic from the diamond icon. What you have here is all the advantages of H2H, and you get a different (better) bonus to your spell casting than the diamond icon.

Morphmarfa, I agree with you that haste gloves (or potions/elixirs) should not even be considered when doing these calculations. I've lost count of the times someone has claimed that their [slow weapon] is just as fast as [fast weapon] when wearing haste gloves. Well, if you have haste gloves, why wouldn't you wear them to wield [fast weapon]?