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Re: A discussion about religion

#1261
What exactly do you consider a 'wasted' life?
A life believing in an unchanging and unprovable collection of writing without looking beyond faith for answers. However, in the eyes of humanity, it would not be a waste simply because society will learn from that mistake over time.
If we were all heading toward death, what exactly would be the point of living a 'good' life? We could not acknowledge our wasted life afterward. We would simply decay and possibly be forgotten as time went on.
In my opinion, the purpose of life and continued existence is the advancement of humanity. Our society as a whole can almost be considered one entity that grows, learns, becomes sick, gets healed, etc. Although our individual lives are relatively short, we each contribute to humanity for better or for worse. Through reproduction, passing along knowledge, and collectively gaining wisdom, we immortalise humanity. Our greatest hope should be to live everyday to the fullest and when approaching death, be content in knowing that humanity will go on and hopefully benefit from your life.
Christians are to live a joy filled life for they are filled with the love and joy of Jesus. When we think of our afterlife we are also content that there is actually something to live for. We have an idea of what life is then, and we can live it without fear or hurry. Those are the defining characteristics of a joyful life in my opinion.
Well, I see no proof of present life being filled with the love and joy of Jesus for anyone. Unless you mean the joy and love for Jesus and not from until the after life?

I suppose those are some of the characteristics of a joyful life (without fear or hurry) but I thought people do live in fear of going to hell if they commit sin... Even if you try to do no sin, the fear exists in avoiding it. I do not think a person can have a truly joyful life but I think a person can have a content life with varying concerns and a varying pace.
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Re: A discussion about religion

#1262
one of the basis in any religion is to monger some fear (amount varies) in going against the word of "god" it ensures people hold to the set of morals as seen by that particular religion
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Re: A discussion about religion

#1263
What exactly do you consider a 'wasted' life?
A life believing in an unchanging and unprovable collection of writing without looking beyond faith for answers. However, in the eyes of humanity, it would not be a waste simply because society will learn from that mistake over time.
If we were all heading toward death, what exactly would be the point of living a 'good' life? We could not acknowledge our wasted life afterward. We would simply decay and possibly be forgotten as time went on.
In my opinion, the purpose of life and continued existence is the advancement of humanity. Our society as a whole can almost be considered one entity that grows, learns, becomes sick, gets healed, etc. Although our individual lives are relatively short, we each contribute to humanity for better or for worse. Through reproduction, passing along knowledge, and collectively gaining wisdom, we immortalise humanity. Our greatest hope should be to live everyday to the fullest and when approaching death, be content in knowing that humanity will go on and hopefully benefit from your life.
Christians are to live a joy filled life for they are filled with the love and joy of Jesus. When we think of our afterlife we are also content that there is actually something to live for. We have an idea of what life is then, and we can live it without fear or hurry. Those are the defining characteristics of a joyful life in my opinion.
Well, I see no proof of present life being filled with the love and joy of Jesus for anyone. Unless you mean the joy and love for Jesus and not from until the after life?

I suppose those are some of the characteristics of a joyful life (without fear or hurry) but I thought people do live in fear of going to hell if they commit sin... Even if you try to do no sin, the fear exists in avoiding it. I do not think a person can have a truly joyful life but I think a person can have a content life with varying concerns and a varying pace.

You've obviously never met Jehovah's Witnesses
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Re: A discussion about religion

#1264
one of the basis in any religion is to monger some fear (amount varies) in going against the word of "god" it ensures people hold to the set of morals as seen by that particular religion
You choose what you fear. God tells us Christians to live without fear (being afraid) for he is with us. If you have Him in your heart, you have nothing to fear. Also, you go to Hell only if you do not accept Him into your heart. You will be rewarded in Heaven for obeying Him.
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Re: A discussion about religion

#1265
one of the basis in any religion is to monger some fear (amount varies) in going against the word of "god" it ensures people hold to the set of morals as seen by that particular religion
You choose what you fear. God tells us Christians to live without fear (being afraid) for he is with us. If you have Him in your heart, you have nothing to fear. Also, you go to Hell only if you do not accept Him into your heart. You will be rewarded in Heaven for obeying Him.
I think the above point is the fear that the things you think or do will forsake you from that 'love'. In the case you stated it would be fearing he really isn't in your heart and thus you will be mutilated and have the flesh torn from you only to regrow so it can be torn again eternally. Christians of all denominations strike fear into children and adults to varying degrees with this.
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Re: A discussion about religion

#1267
one of the basis in any religion is to monger some fear (amount varies) in going against the word of "god" it ensures people hold to the set of morals as seen by that particular religion
You choose what you fear. God tells us Christians to live without fear (being afraid) for he is with us. If you have Him in your heart, you have nothing to fear. Also, you go to Hell only if you do not accept Him into your heart. You will be rewarded in Heaven for obeying Him.
I think the above point is the fear that the things you think or do will forsake you from that 'love'. In the case you stated it would be fearing he really isn't in your heart and thus you will be mutilated and have the flesh torn from you only to regrow so it can be torn again eternally. Christians of all denominations strike fear into children and adults to varying degrees with this.
I think you are finally beginning to see the margin between a True Christian an imitation of one.

Although, the 'flesh tearing' that you are speaking of actually happens to everyone upon death. Worldly flesh a characteristic of man. Regardless of where you are going, you are to lose all of your material traits when you die. That is a good thing in a True Christians eyes, as it is only a chain holding us back. We will be absent from the body and present when The Lord when we die, or Satan depending on our choice. Also, our flesh is not grown twice.

Again, we choose what we fear. If you are a Christian, you do not fear Hell nor death. You certainly do not fear going to Hell - why would you if you know where you are going already?
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Re: A discussion about religion

#1268
What exactly do you consider a 'wasted' life?
A life believing in an unchanging and unprovable collection of writing without looking beyond faith for answers. However, in the eyes of humanity, it would not be a waste simply because society will learn from that mistake over time.
If we were all heading toward death, what exactly would be the point of living a 'good' life? We could not acknowledge our wasted life afterward. We would simply decay and possibly be forgotten as time went on.
In my opinion, the purpose of life and continued existence is the advancement of humanity. Our society as a whole can almost be considered one entity that grows, learns, becomes sick, gets healed, etc. Although our individual lives are relatively short, we each contribute to humanity for better or for worse. Through reproduction, passing along knowledge, and collectively gaining wisdom, we immortalise humanity. Our greatest hope should be to live everyday to the fullest and when approaching death, be content in knowing that humanity will go on and hopefully benefit from your life.
Christians are to live a joy filled life for they are filled with the love and joy of Jesus. When we think of our afterlife we are also content that there is actually something to live for. We have an idea of what life is then, and we can live it without fear or hurry. Those are the defining characteristics of a joyful life in my opinion.
Well, I see no proof of present life being filled with the love and joy of Jesus for anyone. Unless you mean the joy and love for Jesus and not from until the after life?

I suppose those are some of the characteristics of a joyful life (without fear or hurry) but I thought people do live in fear of going to hell if they commit sin... Even if you try to do no sin, the fear exists in avoiding it. I do not think a person can have a truly joyful life but I think a person can have a content life with varying concerns and a varying pace.

You've obviously never met Jehovah's Witnesses
Could you please explain what you mean?
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Re: A discussion about religion

#1269
I think that, wrong or not, looking forward to an afterlife is far better than looking forward to nothing after death.
One of the great sweetness es in life is looking forward to something, if you have nothing to look forward to your life is dull and purposeless. Once you die, it will not matter if you were wrong about an afterlife, but it did make your life that much sweeter. You lived to do your best to prepare for another life, you lived looking forward to something, and you lived with comfort and assurance. This is what I see in my family.


I think your view of atheism is inaccurate and most likely influenced by what non-atheists have told you, or how you personally perceive atheism from the viewpoint of someone who believes in god. I am sure you didn’t intend to do so (because I do think you are a thoughtful person) but your analysis of an atheist’s life is insulting and rather patronizing.

You talk about a lack of a belief in an afterlife as some dull and pointless existence. I agree that many atheists will go through that phase once or twice, but overall it is only a phase which can lead to various paths.

My personal opinion is that the progression of atheism is exactly the same as the 5 stages of grief experienced by someone whose loved one has died. Not everyone goes through all the stages, and they can be experienced in any order.

Just as when someone dies, the degree of closeness we had with that person will be related to the degree we experience the stages. A cousin that I have met only once in my life may be quite easy to take in stride, while the death of a friend that I grew up with will be more difficult.

I find that atheists have the potential to go through these stages twice. The first time is when they encounter the death of God. Many atheists go through the denial, anger, depression and bargaining phases. Many get stuck on the bargaining phase: they come to the conclusion that there is no God, but are unable to accept that there is no afterlife. These atheists are often attracted to godless afterlife concepts, and though I have not delved into the concept, I think that is one reason for the explosion of Buddhism and “New Age Philosophy” in the West in the 20th century.

Sometimes, unable to come to full acceptance, the person has a backlash and indeed becomes more religious than they ever were before, such as the extreme examples C.S. Lewis and Leo Tolstoy, and many less public figures.

If one accepts that there is no afterlife, in time the person will enter a new round of the 5 stages of grief, as they have to wrestle with the ultimate death – not of a mere loved one or creator – but of the self. Truly realizing your own mortality is massive, and I believe that society as a whole got stuck on the bargaining phase, thus the afterlife was born. But for the person who has accepted a belief of no God, again the phases are encountered; depression could very well be experienced.

But this phase is often just that. To make an assessment of someone’s life based on a phase they may go through is ignoring the entire picture.

Just as an aside to illustrate my point, here is something I wrote back in July. (http://www.celtic-heroes.com/forum/view ... t=#p295848). I dare you or anyone to read that and then come back and tell me that my life is “dull and purposeless” simply because I don’t believe in an afterlife. Rather, I will counter that because I believe that this is it, it is more reason to enjoy each and every day; it is more reason to cherish those around us; it is more reason to love, teach and raise our children, as they are the future of us all.

Living not knowing if there is something after death or even thinking there is nothing is a life of fear, a life with nothing after, a seemingly pointless blip of an existence that will, except in a very very few cases, be forgotten completely. You live a short life, then you have nothing. Even your pathetic existence, while it lasts, is full of the fear that it could end any time. Nor is it very important, there are billions of others like you, or more important than you. Your existence is temporary, it will inevitably end, and it isn't even very important.
Again, you are making a generalization based on your impression of what an atheist’s life must be. You would be hard pressed to find full-blown atheists who feel that way for any extended period of time. And in my theory stated above, that person wouldn’t be a full-blown atheist, as they have yet to experience the acceptance stage.

In other words, part of that acceptance is the understanding that the universe does not revolve around me. It is a great joy that I, as well as everyone here, have won the genetic lottery of sorts. That out of several billion possible outcomes, that egg and that sperm found each other at that point in time. It is quite humbling.

As for a “pathetic existence” filled with fear, well you are entitled to your opinion, though I think it fundamentally derogatory. I quite enjoy my pathetic existence, as it is filled with a plethora of senses and emotions. I realize you are saying that as a form of point driving, but it lacks any evidence, and certainly wouldn’t be what an atheist would tell you their life is like.

Rather, we find that atheists are driven to great accomplishments. I can’t speak of intentions behind those accomplishments, but they have certainly been helpful to humanity as a whole. In that regard, and I use the following jovially, you should thank God for atheists. For without them, humankind could very well still be stuck in the technical and medical “dark ages.”

I write all of the above in earnest. I know that you didn't intend to be insulting. I do hope, however, that this might help you to update your mental schema of what the life of an atheist is like.

I can tell you, without pause for thought, that it can be fully rewarding.



One post script tangent: While I believe the above to be true, I will say that even though I feel your account was exaggerated, there is a certain amount of merit in what you say, though it isn’t necessarily atheist/believer in nature. There is a small amount of evidence from a study that found that those who pray or meditate regularly have higher amounts of Dopamine in the brain than those who do not. Dopamine, is of course, a drug produced by the body which has an “elevating” effect, and one distinct area of importance is related to reward motivated behavior.

Now, that doesn’t necessarily speak to the atheist question, though it is probable that atheists meditate less. Two otherwise identical believers should exhibit similar results. It does, though, speak to your notion of joy related to looking forward to something (though again, nothing to do with religion: I look very forward to spending time with my wife and son every day after work, seeing friends, and continuing my work and education, thus figure my Dopamine levels are fine ;) ) and I think it might also say something to my earlier point that the more intimate your relationship with someone, the harder the path of grief. For someone who was quite religious to realize atheism, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if a link to depression and Dopamine withdrawal were found.

One final point which I have said several times, and will say again: I am not by any means trying to show that there is no God, and I encourage anyone who believes in God to continue to do so. This entire post is about countering the notion that atheists lack reason for existence.
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Re: A discussion about religion

#1270
I, as an atheist, don't believe in the afterlife. I realise that once my organic body ceases to function I will no longer exist. This does not scare me and allows me to cherish the time I have living knowing it will innevitably end. There was a point when I was contemplating the point of life knowing it will eventually end though, but this soon passes.

A bit off topic, but what do people think on the work of Gregor Mendel? For those who do not know, he was a monk who was researching the variation of the peas through their colour in the monasteries garden, his research caused him to question his religion and burn his work before his death. Wouldn't this prove that through research and understanding people can realise the truth and flaws in their religion?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Mendel
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