Celtic Heroes

@nighthawk: The majority of your post has little to do with the debate we are having. The topic is dealing with certain restrictions or tightening laws... not disarming the masses.

I do want to touch on something you said within the post, however, as I think you are a bit misguided:

Stricter gun laws will not slow down criminals at all. It will cripple the good, law abiding citizens, allowing the criminals to get away with anything. You can look at the statistics... Countries that have strict gun laws have rampant crime. Countries where the majority of the citizens are armed have record low crime rates.

First off, laws and regulations make crimes (by definition) so it isn't out of the realistic for more regulated societies to have higher rates of crime, because the laws themselves make some acts criminal. If you don't understand what I mean... let's think about those two rooms you mentioned.

Room 1 has no laws. Everything goes. 6 people form a gang, beat the other 14 folks and take their shoes. There are no laws to state that illegal, however. There is therefore, no reportable crime.

Room 2 is governed with laws. It is considered a crime to assault someone. One guy punches a second and is charged with a crime.

You could say that the more regulated room has more crime... but that is only because there were laws to state what constitutes a crime. (This has nothing to do with what you or I would consider a crime, but rather what is reportable in that society)

The above is just a mental exercise. It is a huge exaggeration simply to illustrate a point.

More importantly though (and where I think you are really off base) is that crime rate is a terrible measure for comparing countries, partially because of what I said above. Crime rate is only useful when comparing a single country year-over year. What is considered a crime in one country may not be a crime in another.

Take for example two men who want to kill someone. One lives in the States, buys his gun legally and kills someone. The second lives in Japan and has to buy his gun on the street. The American has one crime: murder. the Japanese has four. In Japan it is illegal to have a gun, illegal to have a bullet, illegal to pull the trigger, and illegal to kill someone, and all are considered separate crimes. It would be incorrect to say that crime in Japan is 4 times that of the U.S. (even though the crime rate may state that).

The way that you should compare countries is by isolating crime which is governed by similar laws. Homicide, assault, burglary... and then look at how they match up. I would also suggest that similar standards of living be considered, as it removes more uncertainties.

If you isolate for specific crimes per capita, I suspect your argument would go out the window. Not because I think the data would necessarily go against what you said, but meaning that it wouldn't support you. Crime has more to do with people than it does anything else.

There will be exceptions for both sides of the argument, but my point is simply that I don't believe a trend can be established. I don't believe more guns equals less crime, nor do I believe that less guns equals less crime. I do, however, suspect the States will be higher in most counts of isolated crime when compared to its peers.

We can delve into it further if you like.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=39e_1360125919
I like this guy...he speaks the truth

@dersu, that is a valid point. It's tough to compare crime rates where the laws are different. that is totally true. But, i would like to point out one flaw in your example:

Room 1 has no laws. Everything goes. 6 people form a gang, beat the other 14 folks and take their shoes. There are no laws to state that illegal, however. There is therefore, no reportable crime.

Room 2 is governed with laws. It is considered a crime to assault someone. One guy punches a second and is charged with a crime.

In these two rooms, the laws were the same. Murder and assault are both punishable crimes in both rooms. The only difference is that one room is legally armed, and the other is not. This gives people the ability to defend themselves from the crimes. It also will make criminals think twice about commiting any kind of assault, knowing there will be opposition. I guarantee that there will be more crime in room 2. One man(the worst in the room) is more powerful than everyone else. how do you think that will work out?

your point about comparing contries' crime rates was totally valid, but your reference to the rooms was incorrect.

No if u take always guns robbers and other bad ppl would still smuggle them and it makes people like civilians defenseless against murders and robbers

This goes 100% with me civilians don't put snipers everywhere and cars and a army outside the crime and don't nervous the kidnapper

Communists and communisum can belive what they want but riches can't be divided for all imagine 5 people and 100 dollars u give each 20 but they want more like a raise like in capitalism but u cant cause then all need more so my theory explains and that was my mind the mind of a 14 year old

But, i would like to point out one flaw in your example:

In these two rooms, the laws were the same. Murder and assault are both punishable crimes in both rooms. The only difference is that one room is legally armed, and the other is not. This gives people the ability to defend themselves from the crimes. It also will make criminals think twice about commiting any kind of assault, knowing there will be opposition. I guarantee that there will be more crime in room 2. One man(the worst in the room) is more powerful than everyone else. how do you think that will work out?

your point about comparing contries' crime rates was totally valid, but your reference to the rooms was incorrect.

Incorrect. My example was not flawed. I didn't suppose the laws of your two rooms. I merely took the analogy of rooms. (Perhaps I should have said two islands so as to avoid confusion). My example was an exaggeration, and created two entirely new societies... one with laws and one without.

But let's look at your theory of more guns equals a safer society. I looked up the data from a few countries for specific crimes, as we agree that crime rate is useless.

1. The U.K., Japan, Sweeden, Singapore, and Germany have very strict laws regarding guns.
2. The U.S. and the Czech Republic have very similar laws about guns, most importantly, both allow concealed carry.
3. I've added Canada and Switzerland to the mix. These countries have a lot of guns, and certain regulations. Furthermore, Canada's proximity to the U.S. gives a good comparison, and you mentioned Switzerland in your post.

All numbers are incidences per 100,000 people. I've listed them in order of highest to lowest.

Burglary

1157 (U.K)
1094 (Sweeden)
0758 (Switzerland)
0714 (U.S.)
0681 (Canada)
0631 (Germany)
0523 (Czech)
0234 (Japan)
0104 (Singapore)

So a fair amount of burglaries in the U.K. and Sweeden (less guns) but you have the three big gun countries (Switzerland, U.S. and Canada) in the middle of the pack. Japan and Singapore show very low rates of burglary... even though they have next to no guns. Personally, I don't see any correlation between the number of guns and burglary. You might be able to make a case if you limit your theory to "Western" countries.

Robbery

189 (U.K)
146 (U.S.)
094 (Sweeden)
086 (Canada)
065 (Germany)
054 (Switzerland)
046 (Czech)
021 (Singapore)
004 (Japan)

Well this one certainly doesn't support your theory. The ability for Americans to have concealed weapons does not deter criminals from robbing you. It doesn't support the opposite either. Statistically there doesn't seem to be a trend at all.

Homicide

4.8 (U.S)
1.7 (Czech)
1.6 (Canada)
1.2 (U.K.)
1.0 (Sweeden)
0.8 (Germany)
0.7 (Switzerland)
0.4 (Japan)
0.3 (Singapore)

No idea what to say about this... America is truly an anomaly when it comes to murder rates. The top three in our list have a lot of guns... so I don't think your armed population equals a safe population stands.

I don't think that says anything though... I don't believe more guns or less guns has anything to do with crime. I think both of us (U.S. and Canada) need to focus more on education than anything.

Assault
Assault is proving to be a difficult nut to crack, mostly due to what we were talking about earlier: different countries classify certain situations differently. What is classified as "aggravated assault" in the U.S., for instance, is three separate forms of assault in Canada (aggravated assault, assault with a weapon, and attempted murder).

To compare the countries, we would really need to delve into their criminal code, determine equal ground, then tally the numbers. I am not prepared to do that

I can say this, though, as I found a U.S.-Canada comparison for 2011 using FBI and Stats Canada sites... again, instances per 100,000 people. The Canadian number is the sum of the three forms of assault that equate to America's Aggravated assault.

241 (U.S)
155 (Canada)

So when looking at Canada and the U.S. only... the fact that you have more guns, or are more likely to be carrying a gun at any given time doesn't seem to make you more safe. Looks like you are 36% more likely to be seriously assaulted in the States rather than Canada. I don't know where we fit in the big picture though.

Just data. Nothing more. I am not trying to suggest that the States needs more or less guns. I do think you are incorrect when you say that more guns results in a safer society... It could, perhaps... but the data certainly doesn't suggest that is the American case.

I really don't care how many guns you have. If you read my earlier posts, my main concern is the proper handling and storage of guns. Regulations in Canada have brought accidental deaths down 43%. That is a statistic that can make you smile

Dersu, Israel and Switzerland have almost no gun laws, and there's almost no gun murder rate or robbery, same in Israel! At certain ages, you're forced to learn how to use a gun and clean it to protect your family. So why pick other countries to use as examples? Why not use these? We need to learn from Switzerland, and do the exact same. Oh and it still baffles me when you give your opinions on American laws and Society when you live in Canada...

Dersu, Israel and Switzerland have almost no gun laws, and there's almost no gun murder rate or robbery, same in Israel! At certain ages, you're forced to learn how to use a gun and clean it to protect your family. So why pick other countries to use as examples? Why not use these? We need to learn from Switzerland, and do the exact same. Oh and it still baffles me when you give your opinions on American laws and Society when you live in Canada...

So Dersu should be excluded from the conversation because of no us citizenship ? Close mindedness is a conservative trait I can't say I'm surprised that's your stance .

These countries above have mandatory military guidelines unlike the us , the idea that they have no gun laws is quite misleading , they have a populace that is properly trained who know how to respect their weapons .