Celtic Heroes

If all thoughts and values are not our own but rather God's, where do malicious thoughts originate. By this logic, they would originate from God which does not sound very nice. I assume I am missing something though so I await your explanation.

I did not say that our thoughts were God's thoughts. I said we CAN think because God gives us the ability to think. God is the SOURCE of our reason and intellect but that doesn't mean we don't have the power to pervert these things. _ALL_ evil contains good. The evil happens when the good is perverted. Matter is good but I can use it to make a bullet to shoot you with. Sex is good, but I can cheat on my wife and so on.

Not really. Even as far back as Plato, Archimedes, Euclid etc. There was a clear distinction.

They and they alone made it a distinction. At the time, however, they were seen to be just investigating the specific things that God supposedly does. Mathematics and science was just a way to explain miracles, at least to the majority of people.

I think the distinction exists with or without our approval.

No no no, I am so sorry. I did not phrase that well and that is not what I meant.
Here is what I meant: Why does God "pick a side' and not offer to solve a dispute with logic and diplomacy, therefore, saving all of the creations and not just one part? It just seems that in many stories, he picks a specific person or group of people to favor instead of offering some awe inspiring way to save everyone.

This one is kind of weird lol. I'm not sure how we can at all say that God "Picks a Side". That would imply somehow that God has a choice in matters of good and evil. That there is some other higher power above God that he is in either the right relation to or the wrong relation to.

This statement also puts a great deal of human characteristics on God. God is the source of Logic. His logic is always right. Diplomacy on the other hand is a relative term.

I think we need to make clear here that God does not put souls into hell or condemn them. WE put ourselves into hell by our own free-will. Using our wills to turn our backs on God has a consequence. Gods antecedent will is for ALL to go to heaven but his consequential will will allow hell.

Now most people will stop dead in their tracks with religion when you start to talk about hell. No one wants to hear about it. No one wants to have any sort of accountability for their actions. But if you think about it this way:

God respects you so much.. so infinitely much.. that he'll even let you go to hell if you want to.

Its amazing.

This intrigued me greatly. However, religion is given a book or set of books with knowledge for which people interpret differently. Interpretations change but at a much slower paste and usually to match science in the modern era.

I would like to state one last thing here regarding interpretations and I'm afraid this will not be very popular. Jesus knew we would all have different interpretations for things especially the Bible so he set up an authority for this by establishing his Church. He gave the keys of the kingdom to Peter ("And on this rock I shall build my church" - Peter meaning Big Rock). Peter then set forth to build the first church. The Catholic Church. Which is still #1 even to this day ("The gates of hell shall never prevail against it"). That church established interpretation over 2000 years.

Jesus knew what he was doing.

Not sure if you are directing this comment at me because I talked about the historical Jesus...

Actually I was more commenting WITH you. I was adding to your thoughts regarding your comment to the other person.

Unfortunately, there are some in the Christian or Jewish faiths that fail to look at the meaning, and instead are insistent that the Bible be taken as 100% fact... or that (as Spirit said above) that "the bible is not only historically correct but also scientifically correct," when in fact it isn't.

Spirit, and others like him, is obviously entitled to his view... though I think it incorrect, and ignorant of evidence.

No matter, I've read it a couple times, and it is indeed a good book, no matter if some parts are fiction or not.

Its better to say: The Bible should be taken as 100% true.
Now that doesn't mean the stories are all true stories. It means the direction the Bible gives you should be taken as the true direction. Story telling has been used throughout history to explain things. The Bibles uses it as well. Its the point of the story that one should consider. the lesson. There are
however many things in the Bible that should of course be taken literally. I believe these things are evident especially with regards to Jesus (who taught
a great deal via stories).

Well, the same argument could be made for several texts throughout history. Some being religious in nature, some not. I agree it isn't a coincidence... but I disagree with the implied meaning (sorry if I have read too much into the statement).

Jews collected writings to form the Tanakh, Christians took that and compiled more to make the Christan Bible, people assembled the Quran/Koran which built upon the Juda/Christian base, the Nihon Shoki is a compilation of old Japanese writings, the Book of the Dead collects like writings, Buddhist and Hindu collections, and even books like The Art of War, or Tao Te Ching are often considered collections of wisdom and not the works of single men.

So no it isn't a coincidence... someone along the way decides to collect like terms under one roof, sure... but so does the Norton Anthology Being a bit cheeky there. Sorry.

To be honest, I am less intrigued with what was collected to form the Bible so much as I am interested in why others were left from the canon. Other Gospels and other writings that were once part of the entire body of teaching, that either faded away, or were forced underground through edict.

I don't believe the same argument could be made. I also don't believe the collections mentioned above reflect the kind of collection in the Bible. There is
a reason why the Bible has been the #1 book in the world for 2,000 years.

Hey, thanks for explaining some of these things. I have one thing to ask about and I will leave the rest alone as they delve deep into specific religious concepts that I am not familiar with.

I am still confused on God's interference. Earlier, I mentioned God's supposed desire to help all yet there are still people suffering and dying. I seem to see two answers now: God does not interfere due to his(her/its) acceptance of free-will and God's interference is actually on another level that happens over time as you help yourself. Is there a combination I am not aware of?

Now this is just an example; I apologise if it offends anyone and I will remove it if asked to.

Adolf Hitler and Holocaust. He committed mass murder but God allows him to pave his own destiny under the rule of free-will. What about the victims? If Hitler wished to commit such a crime and go to Hell, so be it, but why did so many have to suffer?

Hey, thanks for explaining some of these things. I have one thing to ask about and I will leave the rest alone as they delve deep into specific religious concepts that I am not familiar with.

I am still confused on God's interference. Earlier, I mentioned God's supposed desire to help all yet there are still people suffering and dying. I seem to see two answers now: God does not interfere due to his(her/its) acceptance of free-will and God's interference is actually on another level that happens over time as you help yourself. Is there a combination I am not aware of?

Now this is just an example; I apologize if it offends anyone and I will remove it if asked to.

Adolf Hitler and Holocaust. He committed mass murder but God allows him to pave his own destiny under the rule of free-will. What about the victims? If Hitler wished to commit such a crime and go to Hell, so be it, but why did so many have to suffer?

So ill start by saying there is no way for me or anyone else to give a complete answer here. In the end this requires Faith but I can try to give at least a fair answer.

First lets ask the question in another way: "Why didn't God create a perfect world where there was no suffering?". Well, he did. In the beginning there was no suffering but due to free will we brought evil in to the world and the consequence that goes along with it. I realize you have some understanding here as far as individual choices go but your question is more why does God allow us to effect other people, make other people suffer. Well imagine if this were not so. It would be a pretty strange world indeed. If you really think about it, the question is nonsensical. If we could only cause suffering to ourselves well that would just look weird to see a bunch of people standing around just suffering and no one paying any notice or caring (they could not care, to care would be suffering. get it?). So I don't want to go to far into that question because its one of those 'what if' questions that simply couldn't happen and don't really get us anywhere.

The simple answer is this: God allows suffering in order to bring about a greater good, in order to demonstrate the power of God.

911 is a good example. Before 911 there were a lot of Church scandals (still are I know) and people didn't really want to associate with Priests. But after 911 people LOVED having Priests on their airplanes. Families drew closer together. People who never prayed before started. People who were away from the church (whatever church that was) came back. People were talking to God again. Loving God again. FORGIVING each other and repairing social damages. 911 was a great tragedy but God brought about a tremendous good from it.

Now the next question that comes up around this point is "Well God sure doesn't seem nice to cause suffering to get his way". I'm afraid there isn't much I can say here. This is putting human characteristics on God, bringing him down to our level, our way of thinking and is in my opinion nonsense. This is God's creation and he can do with it what he likes. For me there is the end to the matter. For someone else it might be a bit more difficult and I empathize with them.

Keep in mind. No one is innocent. No one is "Good". Only God is good. We are all sinners from the person who gives everything he has to charity to Adolf Hitler. There might be degrees in which some people do worse things than others but this itself is a proof of God. In order to measure works we must have something to measure against.

I know this answer kind of sucked but its the best I can do.

Thank you, that was well thought out and I do understand a tad better. I suppose there is just not enough information about life to determine the answer to all of these questions. I shall stand by my belief of infinite possibilities and perhaps, if there is a God, another entity, or group of entities; I may be forgiven for losing faith.

Thank you, that was well thought out and I do understand a tad better. I suppose there is just not enough information about life to determine the answer to all of these questions. I shall stand by my belief of infinite possibilities and perhaps, if there is a God, another entity, or group of entities; I may be forgiven for losing faith.

I greatly employ you to read the book I mentioned in previous posts. Its cheap, its easy reading and its a perfect book for someone like you asking the kinds of questions you're asking.

Personally I think you're much closer to God than you think.

http://www.amazon.com/Mere-Christianity ... ristianity

You can get a used one for like $3

Thank you so much for the conversation.

This topic is like a book now that im not going to read.

Now the next question that comes up around this point is "Well God sure doesn't seem nice to cause suffering to get his way". I'm afraid there isn't much I can say here. This is putting human characteristics on God, bringing him down to our level, our way of thinking and is in my opinion nonsense. This is God's creation and he can do with it what he likes. For me there is the end to the matter. For someone else it might be a bit more difficult and I empathize with them.

God does not cause suffering. He only allows it to happen. Think of the story of Job - Job was a faithful, rich man with a beautiful family, and they lived happily together. One day, Satan wanted to curse Job and bring him suffering. The Lord granted him the permission to do this, conditionally - Satan could not kill him. Job had his livestock diseased and killed; his family died; and he developed horrid complexion imperfections. Despite all of this, He kept his faith in the Lord, in fact, it grew stronger. The Lord was extremely pleased with this and blessed him with:

- More livestock than he previously had owned
- Riches
- Wisdom
- Etc.

The Lord allowed this to happen to Job because He wanted to test his faith, and make it stronger in the process.

Now the next question that comes up around this point is "Well God sure doesn't seem nice to cause suffering to get his way". I'm afraid there isn't much I can say here. This is putting human characteristics on God, bringing him down to our level, our way of thinking and is in my opinion nonsense. This is God's creation and he can do with it what he likes. For me there is the end to the matter. For someone else it might be a bit more difficult and I empathize with them.

God does not cause suffering. He only allows it to happen. Think of the story of Job - Job was a faithful, rich man with a beautiful family, and they lived happily together. One day, Satan wanted to curse Job and bring him suffering. The Lord granted him the permission to do this, conditionally - Satan could not kill him. Job had his livestock diseased and killed; his family died; and he developed horrid complexion imperfections. Despite all of this, He kept his faith in the Lord, in fact, it grew stronger. The Lord was extremely pleased with this and blessed him with:

- More livestock than he previously had owned
- Riches
- Wisdom
- Etc.

The Lord allowed this to happen to Job because He wanted to test his faith, and make it stronger in the process.

I said this:

The simple answer is this: God allows suffering in order to bring about a greater good, in order to demonstrate the power of God.

To all the people reading this evolutionists I have a question for you
If there is no God no spiritual being in this world what type of world is this? We have no morales except one by men, which they make the same mistakes and their rules do you want to follow rules and regulations by hypocrites? We are merely molecules created by a explosion which somehow created men gender,animals,planets and then the universe? We have no morales? So no meaning in life? Why are we still alive if so? Maybe that's why every day someone dies from killing themselves? Look at the Columbine School Shooting , Eric Harris one of the shooters, look and his web posts and what he wore when he killed himself, this is what he loves Natural Selection you know what that is? It is survival of the fittest so everyday is like hunger games except after you win you will always lose and someone will kill you or you die from old age like the cycle of life? No that is not what it is In the Bible is says we were made in the image of Christ, he is God. That sentence explains it all. We were made by God in His image, just think you ,me ,everyone made by God. Who gives us eternal joy when we die,not Hell. Better to live one day in heaven then 1000 years in another place. So think about it do you want to live in Heaven in Hell? Look this up sometime if you are interested in Heaven John 3:16 one of the greatest verses that explain it all, if your even more interested go to church sometime.