Celtic Heroes

Wow this is a great topic. Very good points from both sides. I'll put my two cents in.

First off, im a lvl 192 ranger with dl bow and and quiver and have been playing ranger for awhile now.

Now im going to go through a lot of different points with different topics on the matter. I will bold the titles and you can read what you want.

My Build

As a full dl geared ranger, i feel as if I am mostly support. I am a strength ranger. My build is as follows: camo, double shot, sharpen, steady, and bolas. As you see i only have 1 damage skill and thats because is the only skill that my "damage" affects. 3 out of 5 of my skills can be applied to support the clan or others. If i wanted more dps in terms of skills my only other viable option is longshot which leads to my next point....

Our Skills

As our endgame gear is geared towards str as it directly effects our autos and nothing else. It seems as if otms intention was to make us str build which is fine, but let's look at our moves...none of them cater to this notion. As a strength build we should be able to use skills that benefits from the build that we chose, but that isnt the case. Our only other option is longshot but that has its drawbacks as it can't be used close range and and it is dex based, we will never get to use it at 100%. Now let's say we decide to go dex and build with majority dex and use our giving skills.

Rangers have:

sharp shot: should be the staple move for a dex build, spammable, cheap, and quick. With the added dex this move should be poking holes through mobs, but at times, with full dex, its barely noticable. This is a problem because we don't have many skills and our auto, even as a dex build, out powers this. So why spam this and use energy when we can spam out auto instead.
Resolve: make this a str based move and also raise the damage by about 35-50% so its between our auto and double shot and will pack a bit more power because it is a dl armor skill and we all know ranger dl is gear towards str builds. This will also gives us a str skill to use instead of just double shot.

U FORGOT 1.

Rapid shot: our rapid skill. Should have a shorter cd and increased duration. This is useful for rangers while soloing. Burst dmg. But, at lvl 23, it only lasts 20 seconds. The skill lasts less than the no of points put in it. Resolve: increase duration of skill by about 2 seconds per point

Barbed shot: our dot skill. Should hits for about what an auto does and deal about maybe 1/2 to 2/3 of the auto for about 15-25 seconds. The problem with this is that our dot skill hits for half our auto and about 1/8 of that for 10 -15 seconds maybe.mso by time its done, it wouldve done about the amount of an auto attack. So why waste 15 seconds instead of doing a few autos?
Resolve: make this skill poison based (i mean the name even sounds like a poisonous skill) it can stay dexed based, but still has utility on both builds. Then just raise the inital damage to that of an auto and im not sure if the damage per tic should be raised because it is poison damage so itll already be doing more damage to mobs

Longshot: this move is actually fine. People will complain about the condition of being at a distance, but with the listed damage it should contain a condition to use such as other powerful skills like sneaky and assassinate.

Defensive spikes: this move should be supporting dps whether its you or a another player with a respectable amount of damage. Maybe between fire cloak and riposte, but instead it barely deal like 80 damage at level 40 which isnt scratching anything.
Resolve: don't make this skill dex or str based. This skill should only depend on ranged ability and be able to be utilized by both builds. Then multiply it by 4 or 5. I would much rather use this move if it were dealing 300-400 per contact hit instead of 80.

Rangers Reality

Because I am an endgame ranger, i will give you my reality. By most strength rangers being similar to myself, they will have similar experiences. We don't lix and if we do its done rarely as we are passed 190. So we are mostly used for bosses so thats what i will talk about. Hrung, mordy, agg, necro, and gara.

For all of these bosses we have tanks and druids. That means that besides gara we arent using bolas. We have an add team for adds so camo isnt needed. What are we to do? All we can do is sharpen and auto with the occassional double shot. That would get pretty boring as you can do this afk. My point is our utility deminishes when we have a tank and druids present because we support through movement debuff and most endgame bosses can't have their movement debuffed. If we want to utilize most of our skills we have to be in an add team which would make us more geared towards support as we are now supporting the dps group from having to deal with lesser mobs. I can understand a dex ranger being geared towards support due to our support skills, but a str ranger should be in a dps group. Im not saying we should out dpsing rogues, but we definately should have moves tailored to use so we wouldnt be a burden in a dps group or have more to contribute. Our feel like our add killing abilities outweigh our boss damaging capabilities.

Now imagine:

If you are a rogue class: imagine you dl gear skills are sneaky, shadow, posion weapon, quick strike, and rend. Now imagine all of those skills are dex based and your gear adds heat damage. Now imagine all these skills only being capatible with a dagger only. If you use a spear you can't use 4/5 of them. How will you build your class? Would you still use the skills as a str build?

If you are a warrior: imagine your dl gear skills are taunt, protective, formation, pummel, and warcry. All of these skills can only be used with a shield and are str based. If theres a better tank in clan than you, you may be out of a job with nothing left but useless skills. what if youre a tank wanting to use protective stance, will you have to use more strength? What if you were dps and wanted to use formation and protective stance? Would you switch a shield back and fourth to use them?

If you are a druid: what if your dl gear skills are touch, wind, vines, lightning, and sanc. All buffing moves could only be used with a staff and damaging moves could only be used with wands. So now youre either swapping back and forth or pure dps or support without hope of the other.

How uncomfortable would it be to play your class? Would you still manage? Would you complain that otm should do something to fix it to make your class more balance towards the two builds that are possible for it?

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I still think rangers need dex skills so as a support ranger with crap autos you can at least kill stuff. U SAY THAT LIKE STEADY AIM CAN 1 HIT KO MOBS, LIKE SHARP CAN DOUBLE SUTO DMG, LIKE DEF SPIKES CAN ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING OTHER THAN TICKLE A MOB's FEET. Maybe make stronger str based skills? But what I can't stress enough is that if rangers have equal or better dps than rogues there is zero point in playing rogue because why take brutal AoE attacks and melee when you can do it all safely from a distance.

We do not have better dps than rogues, how much more can i stress that? Sreng spawned half an hour ago and I couldn't get kill over any of the 4 rogues in group...

Great we got the second best survivability, what do we do with that? Why tank when warriors are available?

Yes you can shoot far away without getting by those terrible AoEs, but you cannot use your skills from afar, autos will mostly be missed due to high defense from raid bosses and dl bosses, which in fact, i dont think your amateur lv100 celtic brain seems to apprehend.( Dude, disagreeing with a guy is one thing. But insulting is another. If u remove the insult, ur post is a perfect counter to yakat's) high def, only non avoidable skill is double, lightheal on a tank and the druids laugh at u with 2 times the heal u got.

This is probably the fattest post ever. Unless someone quotes again

Wow this is a great topic. Very good points from both sides. I'll put my two cents in.

First off, im a lvl 192 ranger with dl bow and and quiver and have been playing ranger for awhile now.

Now im going to go through a lot of different points with different topics on the matter. I will bold the titles and you can read what you want.

My Build

As a full dl geared ranger, i feel as if I am mostly support. I am a strength ranger. My build is as follows: camo, double shot, sharpen, steady, and bolas. As you see i only have 1 damage skill and thats because is the only skill that my "damage" affects. 3 out of 5 of my skills can be applied to support the clan or others. If i wanted more dps in terms of skills my only other viable option is longshot which leads to my next point....

Our Skills

As our endgame gear is geared towards str as it directly effects our autos and nothing else. It seems as if otms intention was to make us str build which is fine, but let's look at our moves...none of them cater to this notion. As a strength build we should be able to use skills that benefits from the build that we chose, but that isnt the case. Our only other option is longshot but that has its drawbacks as it can't be used close range and and it is dex based, we will never get to use it at 100%. Now let's say we decide to go dex and build with majority dex and use our giving skills.

Rangers have:

sharp shot: should be the staple move for a dex build, spammable, cheap, and quick. With the added dex this move should be poking holes through mobs, but at times, with full dex, its barely noticable. This is a problem because we don't have many skills and our auto, even as a dex build, out powers this. So why spam this and use energy when we can spam out auto instead.
Resolve: make this a str based move and also raise the damage by about 35-50% so its between our auto and double shot and will pack a bit more power because it is a dl armor skill and we all know ranger dl is gear towards str builds. This will also gives us a str skill to use instead of just double shot.

Barbed shot: our dot skill. Should hits for about what an auto does and deal about maybe 1/2 to 2/3 of the auto for about 15-25 seconds. The problem with this is that our dot skill hits for half our auto and about 1/8 of that for 10 -15 seconds maybe.mso by time its done, it wouldve done about the amount of an auto attack. So why waste 15 seconds instead of doing a few autos?
Resolve: make this skill poison based (i mean the name even sounds like a poisonous skill) it can stay dexed based, but still has utility on both builds. Then just raise the inital damage to that of an auto and im not sure if the damage per tic should be raised because it is poison damage so itll already be doing more damage to mobs

Longshot: this move is actually fine. People will complain about the condition of being at a distance, but with the listed damage it should contain a condition to use such as other powerful skills like sneaky and assassinate.

Defensive spikes: this move should be supporting dps whether its you or a another player with a respectable amount of damage. Maybe between fire cloak and riposte, but instead it barely deal like 80 damage at level 40 which isnt scratching anything.
Resolve: don't make this skill dex or str based. This skill should only depend on ranged ability and be able to be utilized by both builds. Then multiply it by 4 or 5. I would much rather use this move if it were dealing 300-400 per contact hit instead of 80.

Rangers Reality

Because I am an endgame ranger, i will give you my reality. By most strength rangers being similar to myself, they will have similar experiences. We don't lix and if we do its done rarely as we are passed 190. So we are mostly used for bosses so thats what i will talk about. Hrung, mordy, agg, necro, and gara.

For all of these bosses we have tanks and druids. That means that besides gara we arent using bolas. We have an add team for adds so camo isnt needed. What are we to do? All we can do is sharpen and auto with the occassional double shot. That would get pretty boring as you can do this afk. My point is our utility deminishes when we have a tank and druids present because we support through movement debuff and most endgame bosses can't have their movement debuffed. If we want to utilize most of our skills we have to be in an add team which would make us more geared towards support as we are now supporting the dps group from having to deal with lesser mobs. I can understand a dex ranger being geared towards support due to our support skills, but a str ranger should be in a dps group. Im not saying we should out dpsing rogues, but we definately should have moves tailored to use so we wouldnt be a burden in a dps group or have more to contribute. Our feel like our add killing abilities outweigh our boss damaging capabilities.

Now imagine:

If you are a rogue class: imagine you dl gear skills are sneaky, shadow, posion weapon, quick strike, and rend. Now imagine all of those skills are dex based and your gear adds heat damage. Now imagine all these skills only being capatible with a dagger only. If you use a spear you can't use 4/5 of them. How will you build your class? Would you still use the skills as a str build?

If you are a warrior: imagine your dl gear skills are taunt, protective, formation, pummel, and warcry. All of these skills can only be used with a shield and are str based. If theres a better tank in clan than you, you may be out of a job with nothing left but useless skills. what if youre a tank wanting to use protective stance, will you have to use more strength? What if you were dps and wanted to use formation and protective stance? Would you switch a shield back and fourth to use them?

If you are a druid: what if your dl gear skills are touch, wind, vines, lightning, and sanc. All buffing moves could only be used with a staff and damaging moves could only be used with wands. So now youre either swapping back and forth or pure dps or support without hope of the other.

How uncomfortable would it be to play your class? Would you still manage? Would you complain that otm should do something to fix it to make your class more balance towards the two builds that are possible for it?

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I still think rangers need dex skills so as a support ranger with crap autos you can at least kill stuff. Maybe make stronger str based skills? But what I can't stress enough is that if rangers have equal or better dps than rogues there is zero point in playing rogue because why take brutal AoE attacks and melee when you can do it all safely from a distance.