Celtic Heroes

Yes they are expensive. a colt m4 replica semiautomatic costs about 1800 USD. Military M4 has 3 round burst maybe some have full auto but I was am M16 A3 era vet.

Dersu, Israel and Switzerland have almost no gun laws, and there's almost no gun murder rate or robbery, same in Israel! At certain ages, you're forced to learn how to use a gun and clean it to protect your family. So why pick other countries to use as examples? Why not use these? We need to learn from Switzerland, and do the exact same. Oh and it still baffles me when you give your opinions on American laws and Society when you live in Canada...

Hi Uzi... a few things.

1. I think you've come a long way from our debate in October. You are showing a more open mind in your posts, and are offering some more concrete answers. I am happy to see that. Improving ourselves should always be one of our top priorities. That being said...

2. You still write some things which makes me wonder if you fully read a post in question. It wasn't as if I was cherry picking numbers and countries... If I cherry picked, the U.K. and Sweden would have been left out of my comparison. No, I chose those countries for specific reasons... reasons I already mentioned.

Nighthawk had stated that countries with strict gun laws have "rampant crime." Therefore I searched for countries with strict gun laws. That gave us the U.K., Japan, Sweden, Singapore, and Germany. (No evidence of rampant crime across the board).

He further stated something to the effect that armed citizens equates to less crime, as criminals know you might be carrying a weapon. That gave us the U.S. and Czech. Czech was the only other country I could find where concealed carry was commonplace. Other countries require permits and those permits are usually only given out in special circumstances. (No evidence that an armed population stops prevents crime).

He also used Switzerland in his argument, therefore I included it. (It is included, btw... you might want to re-read my post). I included Canada because of its proximity to the U.S., and our shared history, culture, and heritage. Two plants divided by an imaginary line should develop in the same manner... we obviously have not, however.

Now, since you asked specifically about Israel, I will add it to the list... you might regret that you asked me to do so, however, as it certainly doesn't help your case, but without further ado:

All numbers are incidences per 100,000 people. I've listed them in order of highest to lowest.

Burglary

1845 (Israel)
1157 (U.K)
1094 (Sweeden)
0758 (Switzerland)
0714 (U.S.)
0681 (Canada)
0631 (Germany)
0523 (Czech)
0234 (Japan)
0104 (Singapore)

Robbery

189 (U.K)
146 (U.S.)
094 (Sweeden)
086 (Canada)
065 (Germany)
054 (Switzerland)
046 (Czech)
036 (Israel)
021 (Singapore)
004 (Japan)

Homicide

4.8 (U.S)
2.1 (Israel)
1.7 (Czech)
1.6 (Canada)
1.2 (U.K.)
1.0 (Sweeden)
0.8 (Germany)
0.7 (Switzerland)
0.4 (Japan)
0.3 (Singapore)

So as far as Israel is concerned... low robbery, but high burglary and homicide rate. Again, this doesn't really suggest anything. Guns don't really have much to do with anything. Guns in Israeli homes didn't stop burglars, and since concealed carry is not generally permitted, fear of guns has little to do with robberies.

3. You views on Switzerland and Israel are incorrect. Both countries have very strict laws and regulations in place. Once military service is finished in Israel, people fall under citizen law... and cannot easily obtain weapons. I dislike when American gun enthusiasts use these countries as examples, mostly because they have a LOT more training that the average Sloppy Joe eating American. Here's a good article to read where Israel rebuts NRA claims: http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-dis ... -gun-laws/

4. For clarification, yes I am Canadian and yes, I am from Canada. I have lived in Japan for the past 11 years however. 11 very safe years with no guns around... oddly enough, there is no rampant crime here. I will be moving back to Canada next year, however.

Now as for why I feel fine entering this debate (aside from "freedom of speech" and all that jazz ) ... again, our proximity to the U.S. means that your problems are often our problems. My home town is an hour and a half from the boarder, and for the 7 years before I came to Japan I lived about 30 minutes from the boarder. We get a lot of idiots coming across. Some are assholes, and some are honest mistakes. Here's a recent example of a good guy who made a foolish mistake: http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/12/06 ... he-border/
Who knows what these guys were planning: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/fined+ ... story.html

We also have the illegal movement of American arms (both legal and illegal) into Canada. Canadian laws have limits on magazine capacity. 5 rounds for rifles, 3 rounds for shotguns, and 10 rounds for hand guns. The trade of American arms into Canada is a problem: http://www.vancouverobserver.com/politi ... ian-deaths

I suspect that if your neighbour's garbage was spilling over the fence into your yard, you and your family might have reason for concern.

If you need an assault rifle to defend yourself , or even feel that you do , I feel very sad for anyone that feels that way .

I personally prefer a 12 guage, but thats just me . The point is, by banning certain guns or magazines, you are restricting civilians, but arent even touching criminals.

You realize anyone can be a criminal right? Anyone can be spurred to commit a crime. This isnt the prohibition era where cities where run by mobs, nor will it be if they restrict guns. Maybe if they take away guns like alcohol, mobs could form, but they aren't suggesting that. Second off, the local gangs don't use assault rifles. So guns laws won't effect them to a big degree. What they are hoping to do is stop the ordinary civilians who go nuts and shoot a great amount of people with the guns they legally obtained.

yes apollo, but if someone really wants to kill someone there definitely multiple other alternatives like stabbing or beating or running over, poison. ya know...

Dersu, Israel and Switzerland have almost no gun laws, and there's almost no gun murder rate or robbery, same in Israel! At certain ages, you're forced to learn how to use a gun and clean it to protect your family. So why pick other countries to use as examples? Why not use these? We need to learn from Switzerland, and do the exact same. Oh and it still baffles me when you give your opinions on American laws and Society when you live in Canada...

Hi Uzi... a few things.

1. I think you've come a long way from our debate in October. You are showing a more open mind in your posts, and are offering some more concrete answers. I am happy to see that. Improving ourselves should always be one of our top priorities. That being said...

2. You still write some things which makes me wonder if you fully read a post in question. It wasn't as if I was cherry picking numbers and countries... If I cherry picked, the U.K. and Sweden would have been left out of my comparison. No, I chose those countries for specific reasons... reasons I already mentioned.

Nighthawk had stated that countries with strict gun laws have "rampant crime." Therefore I searched for countries with strict gun laws. That gave us the U.K., Japan, Sweden, Singapore, and Germany. (No evidence of rampant crime across the board).

He further stated something to the effect that armed citizens equates to less crime, as criminals know you might be carrying a weapon. That gave us the U.S. and Czech. Czech was the only other country I could find where concealed carry was commonplace. Other countries require permits and those permits are usually only given out in special circumstances. (No evidence that an armed population stops prevents crime).

He also used Switzerland in his argument, therefore I included it. (It is included, btw... you might want to re-read my post). I included Canada because of its proximity to the U.S., and our shared history, culture, and heritage. Two plants divided by an imaginary line should develop in the same manner... we obviously have not, however.

Now, since you asked specifically about Israel, I will add it to the list... you might regret that you asked me to do so, however, as it certainly doesn't help your case, but without further ado:

All numbers are incidences per 100,000 people. I've listed them in order of highest to lowest.

Burglary

1845 (Israel)
1157 (U.K)
1094 (Sweeden)
0758 (Switzerland)
0714 (U.S.)
0681 (Canada)
0631 (Germany)
0523 (Czech)
0234 (Japan)
0104 (Singapore)

Robbery

189 (U.K)
146 (U.S.)
094 (Sweeden)
086 (Canada)
065 (Germany)
054 (Switzerland)
046 (Czech)
036 (Israel)
021 (Singapore)
004 (Japan)

Homicide

4.8 (U.S)
2.1 (Israel)
1.7 (Czech)
1.6 (Canada)
1.2 (U.K.)
1.0 (Sweeden)
0.8 (Germany)
0.7 (Switzerland)
0.4 (Japan)
0.3 (Singapore)

So as far as Israel is concerned... low robbery, but high burglary and homicide rate. Again, this doesn't really suggest anything. Guns don't really have much to do with anything. Guns in Israeli homes didn't stop burglars, and since concealed carry is not generally permitted, fear of guns has little to do with robberies.

3. You views on Switzerland and Israel are incorrect. Both countries have very strict laws and regulations in place. Once military service is finished in Israel, people fall under citizen law... and cannot easily obtain weapons. I dislike when American gun enthusiasts use these countries as examples, mostly because they have a LOT more training that the average Sloppy Joe eating American. Here's a good article to read where Israel rebuts NRA claims: http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-dis ... -gun-laws/

4. For clarification, yes I am Canadian and yes, I am from Canada. I have lived in Japan for the past 11 years however. 11 very safe years with no guns around... oddly enough, there is no rampant crime here. I will be moving back to Canada next year, however.

Now as for why I feel fine entering this debate (aside from "freedom of speech" and all that jazz ) ... again, our proximity to the U.S. means that your problems are often our problems. My home town is an hour and a half from the boarder, and for the 7 years before I came to Japan I lived about 30 minutes from the boarder. We get a lot of idiots coming across. Some are assholes, and some are honest mistakes. Here's a recent example of a good guy who made a foolish mistake: http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/12/06 ... he-border/
Who knows what these guys were planning: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/fined+ ... story.html

We also have the illegal movement of American arms (both legal and illegal) into Canada. Canadian laws have limits on magazine capacity. 5 rounds for rifles, 3 rounds for shotguns, and 10 rounds for hand guns. The trade of American arms into Canada is a problem: http://www.vancouverobserver.com/politi ... ian-deaths

Awesome! these are very interesting, indeed. Say everybody in the world over 18 had a gun, and knew how to use it very well, let's predict murder rates:
Do you think gun murder rate will be high? NO Scenario 1:
you walk home after your bday party, somebody lurks behind the bushes, and points a gun at your face and wants your wallet. you say "ok" while in reality u grab ur gun *** it slowly pretending to struggle to get your wallet and quickly dodge to the right for a safeguard and shoot him in the face. I do understand that some victims will die if not done in that certain situation. But think about robbery, THEY'RE the ones who will be taken by surprise when you put 3 bullets in 3 robbers' heads when they're unplugging the TV.

Uzi, as I mentioned before you are far more likely to die of gun wound than other weapons. Also, as I also mentioned before, it requires no thought, no consideration of the action, no physical contact, to pull a trigger in surprise or as a reflex. Most people don't have the mental capacity to kill with a stick

@dersu, assuming your statistics are accurate, then yes, they dont really show us a trend in any direction.
Ok, so let me create a new example:
living in america, looking at the stats above, it looks like at some point in my life theres a decent chance that I will be attacked, mugged, whatever.
If/when that happens, I want a gun.

To the best of my knowledge, the numbers are accurate. I will say that I wrote them with the best intentions. I did not fudge anything, nor omit anything that would skew the answer.

I used the following sources, or sites that compiled from the following: The FBI, Stat's Canada, stats on International Crime and Justice from The European Institute for Crime Prevention and Control (HEUNI), A U.K. government report, and Wikipedia (for homicide rates).

Well it certainly would be within your rights (as they stand now) to have a gun for supposed protection. I would hope that you really think about the odds of something happening, however.

As I said in my first post here (page 8 or so) you are 3 to 4 times more likely to kill yourself or a loved one than you are to kill an intruder (200 intruders killed vs. about 700 accidental deaths, mostly kids playing with a poorly stored gun). As far as accidental injuries are concerned, you are statistically about even with someone in your home being accidentally hurt by your gun as you are likely to be killed by someone else's. (about 15,000 murders, and about 15,000 accidental injuries).

That being said, I will once again state that I feel Americans have been duped into believing they are unsafe. Yeah, your homicide rate is terrible... but who is killing who? Do you live in Compton or the Hamptons? About 2000 of your annual murders are gang related. Another massive chunk is spats etc. where people know the killer. Your odds of being killed by a stranger are quite low, I would argue.

All numbers will change depending on your socio-economic status, as well as state. Look up the murder rate of your state and see how it compares to National averages: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cr ... es/table-5

Do as you please, and use any logic you like to justify your owning a gun. As you can probably tell about me, I like statistics, data, compound thinking, and logic. I don't fear America's criminals much at all. I think my odds (if I lived in the States) would be very low that I would encounter one in a dangerous situation. I DO however, fear the average gun owner, as I think there is far too much evidence suggesting that guns are not being stored properly (both in the U.S. and in Canada.) We have done well here to reduce our accidental gun deaths, but I would love to see that even lower.

@dersu, yes I think Canada has done a slightly better job at reducing accidents. Partly through the (un enforceable) law that having a loaded gun in your home makes you guilty of murder by omission if someone dies, does help as a deterrant

@dersu, yes I think Canada has done a slightly better job at reducing accidents. Partly through the (un enforceable) law that having a loaded gun in your home makes you guilty of murder by omission if someone dies, does help as a deterrant

Agreed. The other thing is that law abiding citizens... even if they don't like a law... tend to abide by it.

Take my father, for instance. When the gun registry came into effect, he complained left right and centre. All day everyday I had to hear the same: "Why the eff should I be forced to register and lock my guns. Do they think the crooks are going to do that!!??" or "Effin Government. Do they think a rabid fox is going to slow down to let me unlock the trigger!?"

Both are valid points.

Of course, he registered his guns, and bought trigger locks for them... because I don't think he could bear the idea of breaking the law.

That being said... the idiots in power now have nearly undone all the good that came from the registry. Hopefully, though, people will continue to store their weapons safely because of habit.

You realize anyone can be a criminal right? Anyone can be spurred to commit a crime. This isnt the prohibition era where cities where run by mobs, nor will it be if they restrict guns. Maybe if they take away guns like alcohol, mobs could form, but they aren't suggesting that. Second off, the local gangs don't use assault rifles. So guns laws won't effect them to a big degree. What they are hoping to do is stop the ordinary civilians who go nuts and shoot a great amount of people with the guns they legally obtained.

yes apollo, but if someone really wants to kill someone there definitely multiple other alternatives like stabbing or beating or running over, poison. ya know...

Lol true there are tons of ways to kill people... Trust me I know . But all of these require a certain skill set and a lot them include over powering the other person which isn't all ways the easiest and for the greatest, percentage of them you can run away when the threats are shown. A gun on the other hand, especially automatics, takes little to now skill. Most of the drive by shootings or gang shootings that involve these guns are sprays and prays and half the time they hit innocent bystanders not their "target." Yes there are other ways to kill people but none so as convenient as a gun.

But that is besides the point. Who cares if there are other ways to kill people. If these guns are restricted with special laws then they are eliminating the easy possibility of shooting someone. There will always be crime, murder and death in this world and guns are a huge tool to help commit these atrocities and by limiting purchases on the especially dangerous types of guns, it will hopefully severely lower the crime rate as it would not be as "easy" to kill someone then.

Pigman you say that most people don't have the mental capacity, I disagree. Everyone has Primal instinct in them, its just that people have never had to defend themselves to that extent. Fear is the biggest factor in having to defend yourself. If untrained in handling your fear you could react wrongly and death or injury would be the result. If you learn to use fear as a guiding factor it could steer you in the right direction by being more aware of the situation and use that to keep you alive. Those who fear nothing are the ones that end up pushing daisies in the end, you become overconfident and thats where mistakes are made. I had to handle C4 and other explosives in the military, I respected and understood the power that they had. I feared making a mistake and not going home to my family. But that fear kept me on my toes and aware of much more than just task at hand. All in all I seriously doubt any of you would just sit there and watch your own death unfold right before your eyes without pleading, fighting, or bartering for your life.