Celtic Heroes

I have nothing against your privilege, Longcool;-)

My comment was more about prejudice, i.e. bestowing attributes on people based on certain identifiers.

Your comment clearly states that you oppose to such, but at the same time you bestow the attribute of "not noticing" on white/male/straight. You probably didn't mean it as you wrote it, and i have no problem with it as such because i know that sometimes things come out differently than intended, but you yourself express something that could be described as a "zero tolerance" attitude towards the issue.

So, how do you deal with it, when you on the one hand take a totalitarian stand against "a negative stereotype of a group of people", and a few sentences later negatively stereotype a group of people?

Ah. I see your point. And I think you see mine. But I'll clarify.

I was not trying to say that white/male/straight/etc. people didn't notice "isms" when they occur. That's attributing a behavior to a whole group (or groups) of people.

I was trying to say that the "isms" were a problem when the language enters into the mainstream and then people from the majority or have more power in the society don't notice. So, a specific instance of a behavior that is problematic.

An example: I would never assume that you think rape jokes are funny because you are male. But if someone told a rape joke and you laughed, I would point to that as an instance where you may have failed to notice how offensive that is to a whole group of people (which doesn't just include women, by the way).

Clearer?

I see, Longcool, and I think we're on the same line in general.
I do, however, think that using humor and jokes to tear away at our established taboos and "holy cows" is an important part of keeping society progressing, and that this is also a part of the process that will teach different people to live with each others differences. Excluding certain groups from being the subject of jokes is also discrimination.
Sometimes people have to live with being offended by something, and sometimes the offender needs to know that a line has been crossed and thus hopefully learn something. But these lines are not static, and neither is our perception of what is offensive and not.

If i find a rape joke funny, it is because it is funny, but it's hard to make a funny rape joke.

While I agree we are getting closer to understanding each other, I think a nontrivial space remains between our positions. (My gut reaction to the idea that people should "learn to live with" being offended emphasizes that space.) I'm enjoying the back-and-forth, but I don't think the CH forum is the best place to hash out the differences. I'd be happy to talk more at length in a different modality if you like.

Ive found unless you know someone well and know that they don't take offence to certain statements you should avoid any and all racist, religious and sexist comments. These three topics are the topics that can cause the most problems. Also and i have also done wrong in this topic, be careful when referring to queers, you don't know how anyone will react.

But also from the other side a calm approach asking for them not to use these terms or even calmly explaining the problem you have with this would help situations.

Now i wasn't there in this case so i cannot judge on anything that happened but if what i hear is true an apology is needed.

Be careful when referring to queers? Sweet baby jebus, I believe the word you are looking for is - homosexuals.

(My gut reaction to the idea that people should "learn to live with" being offended emphasizes that space.)

So, what's your gut reaction to "sometimes"?

I agree that this is an issue that could and should be examined at length elsewhere, but also remind you that we are still within the subject of this post, and that you volunteered for the discussion when you corrected Sam's first attempt at defining racism, a definition I found far more useful than the second attempt ("racist comments...is a sign...of racism")

If you want to build bridges rather than walls, consider the possibility that some existing walls need to be torn down. Criticism and humor may be tools for this, and those who wish to preserve existing walls may use accusations of offense and racism to stop it. Regime critics, secularists, artist and commentators are punished and persecuted on a daily basis around the world under the guise of stopping blasphemy and offense.

I'm not walking away from the discussion at all, Derken. I was pointing out the original post was by shadow and directed to his clan about a particular incident. We've sort of hijacked it.

Here's where I think we aren't quite meeting up: You are talking about using humor and criticism to break down societal mores, which might offend some people who want to keep the status quo. I get that and i agree with it wholeheartedly. My point is that there are some societal mores that are in and of themselves offensive. In the US certainly (and in other countries as well, but I know my own best), there is a culture of blaming victims of race- and gender-based violence for their own victimization. It has become so ingrained, so accepted by society that many people dont even see it. People of that minority are more likely to see it because they face it daily, but that's not universal. So brown-skinned people are more likely to experience and to notice being followed around in stores and being pulled over for a "dwb" (driving while black). Lighter-skinned people are less likely to experience these events, and are less likely to notice it happening to others. When dark-skinned people complain about these experiences, they are often told to stop being so sensitive or stop assuming everything's about race. That's why I had a gut reaction to your statement--it looked an awful lot like victim-blaming. And it's the victim-blaming that i find offensive. Using my earlier example, telling a rape joke or laughing at one serves to reinforce the dominant rape culture. It says its ok--funny, even--to talk about women as if their bodies were public property for men to do with as they wish. So i dont think a rape joke or a racist statement could ever serve your stated desire to challenge sociocultural norms, because they do the opposite--they serve to reinforce them.

So, what's your gut reaction to "sometimes"?

I realized I didn't answer this question. My reaction is that I would LOVE sometimes; my problem is that I have to be on alert ALL the time now. I really don't think you understand how much this kind of thing happens. To get an idea, read a couple pages of entries on the everydaysexism.com blog.

As I read it, you would prefer sometimes but would rather react too often that too seldom.

For your general amusement, here is a blog post with 15 rape victim approved rape jokes:
http://kateharding.info/2012/07/13/15-r ... that-work/

There is nothing funny about rape! This topic is outta control!