Celtic Heroes

You can only be punished for buying and selling stolen property if you knew or should have known that it was stolen.

This is exactly the point, Cas. The purchaser either knew (if you accept Viru's information as true) or should have known that the camo was stolen. Thus, making him culpable as a purchaser of stolen property.

Why should he have known? Because 1) NO ONE sells a camo charm! and 2) ABSOLUTELY NO FREAKING WAY anyone sells a camo charm for 1 million gold!! Indeed, there were people approached by the purchaser who attempted to sell the stolen camo charm for various amounts of money who refused to buy it precisely because the transaction smelled.

Let's say a random person came to your house and stole your television. This guy went to the pawn shop and sold it for quite cheap. Does this make the pawn shop suspicious? Maybe a bit, but as an owner of a pawn shop you would know that sometimes people come in and sell their because they either don't know what they are worth, or they are desperate for cash. Naturally the pawn shop purchases the television. So when a friend heard your television was stolen and happened to see the pawn shop selling it, he purchased it and returned it to you. The pawn shop is under no obligation whatsoever to refund your friend his entire cost to buy it, or anyone for that matter. Nor is the pawn shop required to refund the profit they made.

By people asking for the friend who bought to get a complete refund, you're asking a pawn shop to give a person that television for free simply because it happened to be stolen.

Seeing such a cheap item being sold would make most people anxious to buy it and they would not pass judgement as to why that item is so cheap. This person we've been discussing is a human being. We are all prone to mistakes. He did what he could to correct it and refunded the profits he made when he had no reason to. Did it to be more fair. He did not have the same cause as Azz to give the item back to Gin: Neek had no idea who Gin is, Azz has known him for well over a year. So he acted the same as nearly every person would have, since few would have purchased the expensive television in the above analogy just to give it to a random stranger that had their television stolen.

Once this person was over the euphoria of finding such a cheap buy, he did sell it to make money, yes. And when he learned it was scammed, there wasn't a whole ton he could do anyways, is there? He couldn't refund it to the scammer and make it all go away, and had no cause to give it away for free, given he had no idea who the original owner even was. So instead he sold it rather cheap, instead of the 3-5mil he could have easily gotten for it. Not only did the person he sold it to have cause enough to return it free of charge, but also the person got the profits that had been made off of him, and so he ended up paying exactly what the scammer sold it for, despite the unintended middleman.

Being chief is not easy and Heli is trying to do his best. Sometime he succeeds, sometimes he fails.

As does every leader of anything ever haha.

@heli

1) About the accepting of the current status I simply meant that you have to objectively assess the situation from both views - the favourable view and the view against you. If you do not admit that others can be right too or at least that it could seem as not right to others then you hardly can come up with a solution that will settle the situation and it all ends with a convo like "I say this. You said that. I dont agree with you. You dont agre with me. No one will admit the arguments of the other one. We can persuade each other and argue forever." And this thread became exactly this.

2) You could not be more wrong with the pawn store example. In my country if a stolen item is found in a pawn store then the pawn store will be sued and pays a huge penalty for buying stolen gods. This goes especially for predictably stolen items like canal lids (which are marked by the owner company btw) or like if a homeless person brings a brand new tv set in. The pawn store has to refuse to take such an item or if not sure it has to take an ID of such a suspicious person and report this or the pawn store is treated as accessary in the crime. That some pawn stores are breaking the law by taking obviously stolen goods for their profit and they hope no one will find out is another thing. This is just to clarify what was wrong with your example.

If you have any other questions please PM me or write me on kik @toycat because I do not want to support the heated discussion here when some people are just twisting words to their needs so they could say that they are right and everyone else is wrong which makes all argue more and more and this has come to an end right now.

I have a question to 'scammersdie'

Who are you? You talk about morals and you create a name called scammersdie with the purpose to post on this thread.

Hiding behind a name like that shows the morals you have.

As for this camo charm rubbish, let heli deal with it (he doesn't have enough to do )

About the accepting of the current status I simply meant that you have to objectively assess the situation from both views - the favourable view and the view against you. If you do not admit that others can be right too or at least that it could seem as not right to others then you hardly can come up with a solution that will settle the situation

Uh, who on your end tried to do that? Heli is the only one who compromised. He accepted your view of things in encouraging * name removed * to give back the profits and then gave 250K in gold in hopes of settling things.

He can't make us all go back in time so that it didn't happen.

None of the other chiefs moved an inch on the matter and even you just seem to want to keep it going by continuing to post to this thread.

No one is asking you guys to be best buds with * name removed *, but we all play with people we are not overly fond of or who we actively dislike and we don't usually keep them out of groups or constantly give them a hard time. That isn't too much to ask.

@heli

You could not be more wrong with the pawn store example. In my country if a stolen item is found in a pawn store then the pawn store will be sued and pays a huge penalty for buying stolen gods.

Actually, that isn't how it works everywhere.

Utah pawn shops legally hold stolen goods from owners

"Under Florida law, pawn shop owners are allowed to charge crime victims for the return of their goods, unless victims go through an arduous court process to challenge it. It used to be that stolen goods were immediately returned to victims by police."

When pawn shops and crime victims collide, who should pay?

@heli

1) About the accepting of the current status I simply meant that you have to objectively assess the situation from both views - the favourable view and the view against you. If you do not admit that others can be right too or at least that it could seem as not right to others then you hardly can come up with a solution that will settle the situation and it all ends with a convo like "I say this. You said that. I dont agree with you. You dont agre with me. No one will admit the arguments of the other one. We can persuade each other and argue forever." And this thread became exactly this.

I have had more people agree with me and not those who bash the one who bought the charm than I have seen be on the side of what you claim to be the "favourable view." Simply because the six or so people on this thread have one opinion does not mean it's the favorable view. Many people just do not want to get involved in all of this and so will not post on the forums and risk being bashed.
I can understand people being upset that he purchased the camo charm with the intent to sell it, and did not check more clearly to see if it was legit or not. However, after his mistake had been made, the unwavering view that he should pay a ridiculous amount is simply absurd. He even tried to compromise and returned profits. Never did they budge one bit in any sort of compromise.

2) You could not be more wrong with the pawn store example. In my country--

Reverse those. Say in your country before stating I am flat-out wrong. In my country, what I said holds true.

or like if a homeless person brings a brand new tv set in.

Never did I say the set was brand new. The scenario I set up had it as being used.

Really, do pawn shops in your country verify every single item they ever buy for being owned by the person? Say that television was a gift. They'd have no record whatsoever of purchase. Would those shops really force them to bring whomever gave them the gift and have them show a receipt simply to sell a television? No shop I have ever been to or heard of does anything like that, short of vehicles or other extremely expensive things.

Guys seriously, stop arguing. I know neek2 really well (since he was level 50) and he has never done a dishonest thing before. When i talked to him, he said that he saw a rare item at a good price, so he jumped at the opportunity. He had no idea it was stolen. I know im one of the few people supporting him, but lets be honest, we all make mistakes.

Just saying with no disrespect to anyone. Idk where u live heli but in kentucky. The pawn shop gets in trouble and fined and loses stolen items. Happened when my mig welder got stolen. Pawn shop took it and cops found it. I got back for free the pawn shop got fined and lost the money on the item.

nobody made a mistake. he simply bought and sold the charm for profit. then he was pressured into returning the profit from the sale. he was further pressured to return all the gold and be out 1 mil. as far as im concerned this was a huge con effort to take an item for free and beat the buyer out of his gold. in simple terms a SCAM ! but since these end game players are doing it, well they are above the law. if someone under level 50 or 100 pressured someone to give an item back they would be deemed a scammer, shunned, etc. but since those in aftermath do it then thats ok i guess.

as far as the camo charm being priceless and all blah blah, well youve seen it with every other item in the game. things are slowly being replaced, upgraded, etc. look at a sultans carpet. you havent seen that many before the beltane chests but now they started showing up as people are selling them. the camo charms day will come. already have camo on staves, and sooner or later they camos will be on the market more. they are not worth as much as people say they are, One going for a million does not surprise me.

simply the man did nothing wrong, and once again certain people are trying to police the world. remember, its a game! no government, police, morals, or anything else exist. people are free to do as they please. i personally play this game with morals, but that doesnt mean i can stop someone who has no morals. relax, take a deep breath, and stop stepping on others toes.

Mysteryman

I hope you are not accusing me of scamming?!!

Now. I want to repond once and once only:

I really would rather this whole thing just go away. I really enjoy this game and dot like seeing my favorite world in this animosity. Idk who scammed, why, or when the charm was scammed. And i really dont care a this time.

Each and every person here has a right to play the game in which they wish. And this can include dishonorable or honorable. There are consequences to both. These consequences are what they are. But i would rather continue with the game the way i have played and the way i have made friends here.


I do greatly appreciate everyone's help in returning gold to me. This was an extremely nice gesture
And as of this time i have had almost all returned to me from great friends

And as for the return of the charm. I thnk there are many here that would have done the same thing

I continue to return to the old proverbial "do u to others as u would have done unto you". This is how i choose to play the game. And try to live my life.

So. Can we all just go back to having fun? And stop the bickering

Mysteryman

I hope you are not accusing me of scamming?!!

Now. I want to repond once and once only:

I really would rather this whole thing just go away. I really enjoy this game and dot like seeing my favorite world in this animosity. Idk who scammed, why, or when the charm was scammed. And i really dont care a this time.

Each and every person here has a right to play the game in which they wish. And this can include dishonorable or honorable. There are consequences to both. These consequences are what they are. But i would rather continue with the game the way i have played and the way i have made friends here.


I do greatly appreciate everyone's help in returning gold to me. This was an extremely nice gesture
And as of this time i have had almost all returned to me from great friends

And as for the return of the charm. I thnk there are many here that would have done the same thing

I continue to return to the old proverbial "do u to others as u would have done unto you". This is how i choose to play the game. And try to live my life.

So. Can we all just go back to having fun? And stop the bickering

Plus one. Stop the fightning.