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Re: A discussion about religion

#451
What I had written, some page or two ago due to the recent torrent of arguments, was just a simplification of reality. I suppose it is only natural that humans desire other humans to think like them and believe what they do. Vendral really did a great job of explaining what I was heading towards.

There are just some people that will not budge from what they believe in and that is perfectly fine. Honestly, I believe it is time for everyone to just back away and get back to life. No one here knows everything and I doubt repeating the arguments that so many people have made throughout history will change any persons opinion now.

I think the thing everyone seems to forget is that we are all people. Anything bad or anything good is not solely found in one belief or the other.
Well I read from page 1. The torrent really starts there and didn't stop.

If you have time read my response or perhaps better yet read up on how the scientific method works because I'm not so sure from your post you understand it correctly. If you do then my bad on that.

I for one do not and am not interested in "having others believe what I believe". However I do want everyone to accept facts and incontrovertible evidence that is scientific theory. It is in my own best interest to accept them and it is in thier own interests to accept reality. Not accepting them drags our entire society down and causes massive problems. There is no opinion involved. Denial of reality will only hurt yourself and others.

There Is no 'belief' required.
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Re: A discussion about religion

#452
What I had written, some page or two ago due to the recent torrent of arguments, was just a simplification of reality. I suppose it is only natural that humans desire other humans to think like them and believe what they do. Vendral really did a great job of explaining what I was heading towards.

There are just some people that will not budge from what they believe in and that is perfectly fine. Honestly, I believe it is time for everyone to just back away and get back to life. No one here knows everything and I doubt repeating the arguments that so many people have made throughout history will change any persons opinion now.

I think the thing everyone seems to forget is that we are all people. Anything bad or anything good is not solely found in one belief or the other.
Well I read from page 1. The torrent really starts there and didn't stop.

If you have time read my response or perhaps better yet read up on how the scientific method works because I'm not so sure from your post you understand it correctly. If you do then my bad on that.

I for one do not and am not interested in "having others believe what I believe". However I do want everyone to accept facts and incontrovertible evidence that is scientific theory. It is in my own best interest to accept them and it is in thier own interests to accept reality. Not accepting them drags our entire society down and causes massive problems. There is no opinion involved. Denial of reality will only hurt yourself and others.

There Is no 'belief' required.
Well, I made an attempt to cover science in a broad way. My apologies for making it confusing. :/

As for the second part, that is just it. Religion, theories, facts, and laws are all ideas. The true beauty of science is that is allows for multiple possibilities. Hence the whole reason for testing a hypothesis in order to reduce the amount of more likely possibilities.

The things you have mentioned in earlier posts are all widely accepted evidence which have people lean in one direction. I myself am an evolutionist but I do believe everything can still be questioned.
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Re: A discussion about religion

#453
Well I read from page 1. The torrent really starts there and didn't stop.

If you have time read my response or perhaps better yet read up on how the scientific method works because I'm not so sure from your post you understand it correctly. If you do then my bad on that.

I for one do not and am not interested in "having others believe what I believe". However I do want everyone to accept facts and incontrovertible evidence that is scientific theory. It is in my own best interest to accept them and it is in thier own interests to accept reality. Not accepting them drags our entire society down and causes massive problems. There is no opinion involved. Denial of reality will only hurt yourself and others.

There Is no 'belief' required.
Well, I made an attempt to cover science in a broad way. My apologies for making it confusing. :/

As for the second part, that is just it. Religion, theories, facts, and laws are all ideas. The true beauty of science is that is allows for multiple possibilities. Hence the whole reason for testing a hypothesis in order to reduce the amount of more likely possibilities.

The things you have mentioned in earlier posts are all widely accepted evidence which have people lean in one direction. I myself am an evolutionist but I do believe everything can still be questioned.
Yes questioning is very good if done correctly. If you form a better hypothesis than what is out there and collect data and show how it fits. A common misconception is you have to be the 'smartest' to be right but scicence dosent come from authority. Anyone can provide new hypothesis.

An example for evolution is when it was suggested that genes may not just be selected for at the organism level but at the level of genes themselves. This was highly controversial at first, due in large part to evidence having not been collected. But as more and more evidence has been independently gathered this hypothesis has gained a ton of momentum to where it is, if not has already become, Theory. That person is now famous for having such insight.

Questioning by hand waving away lifetimes of dedicated data collection and careful analysis by using an ancient tome that spews Stone Age morality - using conjecture personal feelings and such over facts - denying reality - is not only not questioning properly it is dangerous and offensive. It is demonstrably the wrong way to go and not the same.
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Re: A discussion about religion

#454
i can see this comming again...

i see more evidence against evolution than evidence for it. all right you evilutionists, lets do this again. give me your evidence,
then i will fight back.
Evolution is proven, a quick google search of Charles Darwin will prove that. And no I do not expect to change your belief on the internet so I shall not try, just putting the argument forward.

Re: A discussion about religion

#455
Fighting evolution

i can provide lots of evidence for the contrary.

natural selection only works when there already self reproducing organisms, so how did the first cells change to how they are now? i have heard an argument that natural selection is an oxymoron because it gives the power to choose, something that only belongs to intelligent beings, to nature. of course natural selection works in some cases, like the peppered moths obviously, but there are things about living things today that i do not see how they can be applied to natural selection.

i just skimmed through the above, didnt bother to read it so show me direct evidence.

i have much more in store.

stop criticizing us for petty little things while making yourself look like a moron. show me evidence, if you have any.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong wrong. First up. The first living cell reproduced a-sexually (on its own) by splitting, and intellegence isnt needed for growth, however we don't choose how we evolve, our body basically says "lets try this and see if it works" it will then, over hundreds of years, change to have say, claws, if it is shown to be useless, the trait will die off, if it is useful then via reproduction the gene will be passed to the masses.

Re: A discussion about religion

#456
Yes I did use Wikipedia. Most actual science journals are behind a paywall. Which do you subscribe to so I do not need to use free sources?

I clicked on the first link because the entire rest of the world is in agreement. Not so suprisingly it happed to say exactly what i did because it is essentially a well accepted 'fact' to put it in understandable terms. Only those ignorant and never educated or those whose religion has addled all sense from the brain take issue. The evidence is not hard to find it is staring you in the face everywhere you look.

Because it can be altered does not make it wrong. It is in fact correct on most all of the details. It is one of the best free sources.

You have provided no counter examples. The correct way isnt to hand wave away cited evidence it is to provide more snd better citations wirh an explination Please provide them and if they are true we can help make Wikipedia more accurate.
Actually, Wikipedia can only be altered if you are given permission to alter it now, just sayin, and even if something was changed to be incorrect, it won't stay incorrect for long.

Re: A discussion about religion

#457
May I also point out, they say god is true because of a lack of disproving evidence, if so, can the same be said of a murderer? There is no proof he didnt kill a guy, so he is a killer? Sure. Also you seem to only attempt to disprove the theory that directly contradicts your religion. Putting your faith in some higher being is actually unhealthy, why would you spend your life trying to win someone elses affection? Life 2 short, dont live it kissing the same fake guys ass that your parents kissed, very few Christians are "born again" Christians, most of it is simple mimicry of parents. A need to be a part of the "family unit" is what makes you believe in God

Re: A discussion about religion

#458
Yes I did use Wikipedia. Most actual science journals are behind a paywall. Which do you subscribe to so I do not need to use free sources?

I clicked on the first link because the entire rest of the world is in agreement. Not so suprisingly it happed to say exactly what i did because it is essentially a well accepted 'fact' to put it in understandable terms. Only those ignorant and never educated or those whose religion has addled all sense from the brain take issue. The evidence is not hard to find it is staring you in the face everywhere you look.

Because it can be altered does not make it wrong. It is in fact correct on most all of the details. It is one of the best free sources.

You have provided no counter examples. The correct way isnt to hand wave away cited evidence it is to provide more snd better citations wirh an explination Please provide them and if they are true we can help make Wikipedia more accurate.
Actually, Wikipedia can only be altered if you are given permission to alter it now, just sayin, and even if something was changed to be incorrect, it won't stay incorrect for long.
Yes i know that. I tried to say basically that - that it is a very accurate site and one of the best free ones. But the argument was made that anyone with a membership could alter it so it was 100% inaccurate. I've notice this is a knee jerk response from people who are uncomfortable about thier own reasoning.
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Re: A discussion about religion

#459
Yes I did use Wikipedia. Most actual science journals are behind a paywall. Which do you subscribe to so I do not need to use free sources?

I clicked on the first link because the entire rest of the world is in agreement. Not so suprisingly it happed to say exactly what i did because it is essentially a well accepted 'fact' to put it in understandable terms. Only those ignorant and never educated or those whose religion has addled all sense from the brain take issue. The evidence is not hard to find it is staring you in the face everywhere you look.

Because it can be altered does not make it wrong. It is in fact correct on most all of the details. It is one of the best free sources.

You have provided no counter examples. The correct way isnt to hand wave away cited evidence it is to provide more snd better citations wirh an explination Please provide them and if they are true we can help make Wikipedia more accurate.
Actually, Wikipedia can only be altered if you are given permission to alter it now, just sayin, and even if something was changed to be incorrect, it won't stay incorrect for long.
Yes i know that. I tried to say basically that - that it is a very accurate site and one of the best free ones. But the argument was made that anyone with a membership could alter it so it was 100% inaccurate. I've notice this is a knee jerk response from people who are uncomfortable about thier own reasoning.
I know, sad to see society break down to such a low level.

Re: A discussion about religion

#460
first off, if you think i have said something ridiculous, which i may have, then tell me and show me your evidence. and dont get mad at me because i said apes are the closest physically to humans when it may be gorillas, correct me for big things. i have done my best to show both sides of the argument. honestly, i think everyone should know everything about both sides so they can understand the evidence and see which one is BS.
Evolution is proven, a quick google search of Charles Darwin will prove that. And no I do not expect to change your belief on the internet so I shall not try, just putting the argument forward.
i did a quick search for evolution evidence, and this is the first link.
http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_3.htm
i have seen this many times, and i have three letters for it, LOL

they say the evidence for it are these things,
1. the fossil record of change in earlier species
2. the chemical and anatomical similarities of related life forms
3. the geographic distribution of related species
4. the recorded genetic changes in living organisms over many generations
the first piece of evidence, the fossil record, is no evidence for evolution. of course there have been changes in the animal history, but that does not prove evolution. the closest species that they have found to humans, whether alive today or in the fossil record, the difference is so great that it cannot be attributed to a single genetic mutation. show a fairly consistent process of any species from the fossil record, then i will listen.

the second piece of evidence, is again no evidence. yes there are similar species, but that does not mean that they have the same ancestors. the closest species to humans physically is the ape, but the closest species genetically is the pig. did humans apes and pigs all evolve from the same ancestors?

there are different kinds of unique species on isolated islands. since the isolated islands are going to be different than the mainland, of course it is going to be the way it is now if evolution occurred the way they say it did, or of course a intelligent designer would design the species to be perfectly fit in with their environment. again, this is no real evidence.

the bacteria experiment, in no way is proof for evolution. since there are a bunch of different kinds of bacteria, including the kind that was already immune to the killer, what do you know! the immune bacteria survives the killer and "thrive". i can see how they are implying that this shows natural selection, and i know that natural selection is a true principle in a lot of cases, only morons would go against that. so the immune bacteria survive and overcome. so, if evolution occurred, a single beneficial genetic mutation had to occur at the same time of the change in climate or whatever, and the change in the creature had to benefit it in this specific change. the chances are so remote.
now, cells can adapt themselves a little bit, for example, the people living in the Andes Mts. have much more developed chests because they have to use the oxygen more efficiently because of the altitude. now, i live around tall mountains and when i go up there high for a few days, you will get a headache. but after a day or so that will go away. How? you get used to it. how? because your cells are begging to adapt themselves, almost like they have a mind of their own. nothing to do with random mutation or natural selection. that is what was going on with the finches on Galapagos Isl. they still have the same gene mapping but they can adapt themselves a little and they are still the same species. but after a while it can be implemented into the dna, as has happened with those people.
yes, we have developed different kinds of animal through selective breeding, but those are intelligent designers that pick and choose, something that nature cannot do on its own, to get what they want to make a certain kind of looking dog or whatever.

ok, do not give me the BS that evolution is far from being accepted, you stupid website. it is far more accepted than intelligent design, and that is why these science morons do not look at the evidence open mindedly, and sources like this use examples that are no proof at all or are in fact proof to the contrary, and do not show the other evidence that is against this theory,(not that i am saying that YEC christans websites dont do the same) but the average human would not know that, and any open minded human who looks at this is going to think, "well those Christians are morons, look at this evidence!" (ps, i do not think that the YEC's have it all right either)
i hate political correctness, i hate the accepted view of things, i hate that we will just lock ourselves onto a view and will not change it, and that is why any scientist that goes against evolution will loose his/her reputation, or job, or both.

no one will ever gain more truth about anything if they do not accept the FACT that they might be wrong, and i am not saying that i am perfect in that, just look in my computer argument thread. but as far as this subject, i know the evidence, and it is obvious to me, and dont say that this is one of my delusions.


now as far as my first post about cells, how could randomly splitting a-sexual cells produce a perfect male and female that are compatible with each other? it would have to have the sex organs, the birth organs, and the instinct to do it, and it would have to be perfectly designed for each animal. it is ROFL to me for someone to say that it happened like that. if there is another theory, then show me.

there are things about animals that i do not see how they can be applied to random genetic mutation and natural selection.
for example:

birds wings. if they evolved from when nothing was there, for it to work at all for the bird to fly, you would have to have the perfectly designed wing, on both sides, with the feathers, for it to be any use. and that cannot be attributed to a single random genetic mutation.
now if they evolved from flippers, you would still have the perfectly redesigned wing on both sides with the feathers for it to be any use, and that is still impossible. and they would have to learn to use it in the single generation.

if the first cells originated in water, then how did we get air-breathing lungs? again, we would have to have the perfectly designed lung for it to be any use, in a single genetic mutation, that would be quite the jerk from land to water. and if a fish all of a sudden got lungs that could breathe air, it obviously would be able to survive better in water than on land, how would it defend itself and get food? so explain how lungs on a fish would be beneficial.

these are just a few examples, just think about it, a heart... without blood veins? or bone in the ear... without the ear drum, and all the other necessary parts to make an ear work? etc. etc. etc.


i have something for you to think about, it is not evidence. if you take a real complicated swiss watch, take it all apart, put it in a box and shake the box, will it ever put itself together because of random event? what if a wrong thing was impossible to happen, only something that would further put it together? what about after 500 million years? it is impossible. and trust me, the human body is way more complicated than a swiss watch.

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