Celtic Heroes

Mk the box thing. You try taking a few supercharged atoms, putting them in a box with unlimited space, shake it up, and see if you can make a civilization with the ability to think, comprehend, and argue. We may be related to those things but how come we came out on top? Apes have much more muscle than a human could hope to get and have opposable thumbs just like we do. How come they didn't come out on top? How come humans didn't go extinct almost immediatley? These animals? They would slaughter us with ease. The only explanation for it is help from a divine creator. And don't say because some person in Gary Paulson's books did it we could too. We would die quickly without a divine creator. Also it is instinct. Find one tribe that didn't believe in a creator before "civilized" white man came and told them God doesn't exist. It's human nature that there are is a God From the dawn of civilization we have known.
I cannot prove to you that God exists, nor can I make you believe. You have hardened your heart. I will not try to force you to follow Christ. But please, write down everything you know about atheism down on one notepad. Then try to find problems, try to prove it wrong. Then put everything about the Bible and what it says about how to be saved down on another notepad. Whenever you find something that doesn't match up, write it down and look for a solution. If you will not listen to me, fine. But please listen to yourself.
I can just pray that you will see. I hope that I never have the chance to say I told you so.

Are you stupid? Humans have survived because compared to other animals, we are all Einstein's, we stay in groups and adapt to survive quickly, that is why you have black and asian and white people, originally, everyone was black, then black people moved to other countries and their skin colour changed to help combat the environment, and have you ever been to the UK? The most dangerous animal here is a poisonous snake called the adder. It takes 16-34 hours to kill you and it will kill you with liver failure, are you claiming 1 species of snake could kill thousands of humans? Humans in groups and armed with great knowledge? I think not. Give me your opinion on natural selection (and think it through deeply this time, because I kinda think u wrote this in 1/2 a min) and I shall explain why I think evolution is true

I would like to say the reason I am a devote believer in science is because, simply put, where God been at? If God is real, why does he let rapists, murderers and criminals exist? He "purged the earth of evil" once, do it again! And there is conclusive evidence of evolution that just flat out trumps religion, if I were to follow any religion it would be Buddhism, they believe that you should not concern yourself with the past. If God came down from heaven and told me right now he was real, I would happily get down on my hands and knees to prey, but it ain't gonna happen, so I ain't praying, may I also add, if God is real, why does he let people such as the KKK claim to stand up for his cause? Does he look on and say "in 50 yrs time they will be in hell"? Cos does that save the 100 poor black men/women who are beaten and killed til those 50 yrs are up? I think God is just a cop out because people cant admit they are afraid of death, I am afraid of death, I will admit it. As soon as you do, you will be much happier. Although, on the bright side. In the future a
Nano bots will have developed so as to slow the ageing process, I believe humans are like a machine, when we die. It is like turning a computer off. For example, if I were to program an AI, that program would feel just like a human, and it too would be scared of death. Scared of the unknown

Mk the box thing. You try taking a few supercharged atoms, putting them in a box with unlimited space, shake it up, and see if you can make a civilization with the ability to think, comprehend, and argue. We may be related to those things but how come we came out on top? Apes have much more muscle than a human could hope to get and have opposable thumbs just like we do. How come they didn't come out on top? How come humans didn't go extinct almost immediatley? These animals? They would slaughter us with ease. The only explanation for it is help from a divine creator. And don't say because some person in Gary Paulson's books did it we could too. We would die quickly without a divine creator. Also it is instinct. Find one tribe that didn't believe in a creator before "civilized" white man came and told them God doesn't exist. It's human nature that there are is a God From the dawn of civilization we have known.
I cannot prove to you that God exists, nor can I make you believe. You have hardened your heart. I will not try to force you to follow Christ. But please, write down everything you know about atheism down on one notepad. Then try to find problems, try to prove it wrong. Then put everything about the Bible and what it says about how to be saved down on another notepad. Whenever you find something that doesn't match up, write it down and look for a solution. If you will not listen to me, fine. But please listen to yourself.
I can just pray that you will see. I hope that I never have the chance to say I told you so.

I'll reply to the rational side of your questions.

The reason humans came out on top is simple. We are more intelligent, especially socially, and were able to develop language. With language and the ability to communicate accurately we could pass ideas far better than any other animal. Our hands used to be used for holding branches were repurposed for tools. We were then able to develop technology such as spears and fire. These tools used by groups hunting along with language and intelligent tactics made any other animal on land far underpowered in comparison. This was such an overwhelming advantage that humans started wiping whole other species out. If it was an mmo humans would have been hit with the ban hammer for being way op.

Plus3, you make some good points but you are indeed a tad aggressive. As Pigman has said, no one likes to be told they are incorrect. We can kindly prove ourselves "more likely" as a teacher would.

One thing I would like to address for the topic is the use of word science. Science is not knowledge that is undeniable/incontrovertible. Science is a way of studying and understanding the world through observation and experimentation.

Science is not for or against anything. In fact, we all practice science by simply observing and experimenting in our daily lives. From the way I see it, we should use the idea of science and apply it to one idea versus another idea (a simplification, of course). For example, if this thread will continue to focus on creationism versus evolution, the notion should be to prove by a preponderance of evidence towards one or the other.

I agree that I am a tad agressive. However, if you could sit through my life and see all the horrible things religion and reality denial causes and NOT be then you are a better person.

Not only do i disagree with you that "science is not knowledge that is undeniable/incontrovertible" but I am begging you to show evidence of this. So if I am in denial of the internet it ceases to be? There is a reason that there is no christian science, American science, Muslim science, Japanese science or even human science. It is science and it would work even if humans were wiped from the planet and replaced with self replicating sentient robots. And i hope you realize that if you somehow actually are able to show a more encompassing theory that fits the data better it becomes science right? Its a catch 22 any successful attempt only reinforces its validity and accuracy any failure ceases to do so There is no belief required - no belief can overcome science/reality.

There is no debate about creationism versus evolution. No serious one based in reality. If a person can't see that there is an absolutely overwhelming amount of evidence on one side and absolutely zero evidence on the other then a rational debate can't happen. It's really a catch 22.

The idea that science is not certain is a generally known part of the idea of science. It is difficult to find absolute proof but I will do my best. Here are some links. These are not perfect sources but they should provide some insight.

Certainty and Science (Wikipedia on Science): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science#Ce ... nd_science

SCIENCE IS NOT ABOUT CERTAINTY: A PHILOSOPHY OF PHYSICS: http://edge.org/conversation/a-philosophy-of-physics

Science is not about certainty: http://judithcurry.com/2012/05/30/scien ... certainty/

I would like to say the reason I am a devote believer in science is because, simply put, where God been at? If God is real, why does he let rapists, murderers and criminals exist? He "purged the earth of evil" once, do it again! And there is conclusive evidence of evolution that just flat out trumps religion, if I were to follow any religion it would be Buddhism, they believe that you should not concern yourself with the past. If God came down from heaven and told me right now he was real, I would happily get down on my hands and knees to prey, but it ain't gonna happen, so I ain't praying, may I also add, if God is real, why does he let people such as the KKK claim to stand up for his cause? Does he look on and say "in 50 yrs time they will be in hell"? Cos does that save the 100 poor black men/women who are beaten and killed til those 50 yrs are up? I think God is just a cop out because people cant admit they are afraid of death, I am afraid of death, I will admit it. As soon as you do, you will be much happier. Although, on the bright side. In the future a
Nano bots will have developed so as to slow the ageing process, I believe humans are like a machine, when we die. It is like turning a computer off. For example, if I were to program an AI, that program would feel just like a human, and it too would be scared of death. Scared of the unknown

If people want to know what I 'believe' it is siimilar to this. I expect that within the next 200-400 years there will be no real disease and science will have made humans immortal. No need to age no need to be trapped in a frail body but youthful for eternity (well the universe has a finite lifespan but practically so). No need to be trapped in a particular design if you are a white male and want to be a black female it could be done cheaply and with as high quality as natural black females are toady Well without any genetic defects - artifical so better. You will be able to back up your conciousness so even if you die you can just respawn like in a video game. Goods and services and energy will be so plentiful everyone will live at a far far higher standard then we do today. If you want to deny reality no one will force you to live you can die old school if you so chose. I doubt I will live to that day but if cheap ubiquitous immortality and a wonderful world playground with toys for all dosent shut up bs promises of make believe 'after life' nothing will.

I do not in the slightest care if anyone else thinks this nor do I expect anyone to 'believe' it.

I believe all those things are possible. I also believe you have been watching too much scifi recently. Lol

I would like to say the reason I am a devote believer in science is because, simply put, where God been at? If God is real, why does he let rapists, murderers and criminals exist? He "purged the earth of evil" once, do it again! And there is conclusive evidence of evolution that just flat out trumps religion, if I were to follow any religion it would be Buddhism, they believe that you should not concern yourself with the past. If God came down from heaven and told me right now he was real, I would happily get down on my hands and knees to prey, but it ain't gonna happen, so I ain't praying, may I also add, if God is real, why does he let people such as the KKK claim to stand up for his cause? Does he look on and say "in 50 yrs time they will be in hell"? Cos does that save the 100 poor black men/women who are beaten and killed til those 50 yrs are up? I think God is just a cop out because people cant admit they are afraid of death, I am afraid of death, I will admit it. As soon as you do, you will be much happier. Although, on the bright side. In the future a
Nano bots will have developed so as to slow the ageing process, I believe humans are like a machine, when we die. It is like turning a computer off. For example, if I were to program an AI, that program would feel just like a human, and it too would be scared of death. Scared of the unknown

If people want to know what I 'believe' it is siimilar to this. I expect that within the next 200-400 years there will be no real disease and science will have made humans immortal. No need to age no need to be trapped in a frail body but youthful for eternity (well the universe has a finite lifespan but practically so). No need to be trapped in a particular design if you are a white male and want to be a black female it could be done cheaply and with as high quality as natural black females are toady Well without any genetic defects - artifical so better. You will be able to back up your conciousness so even if you die you can just respawn like in a video game. Goods and services and energy will be so plentiful everyone will live at a far far higher standard then we do today. If you want to deny reality no one will force you to live you can die old school if you so chose. I doubt I will live to that day but if cheap ubiquitous immortality and a wonderful world playground with toys for all dosent shut up bs promises of make believe 'after life' nothing will.

I do not in the slightest care if anyone else thinks this nor do I expect anyone to 'believe' it.

Well maybe, energy can only be plentiful for so long though unless we find a way to break the second law of thermodynamics.

Plus3, you make some good points but you are indeed a tad aggressive. As Pigman has said, no one likes to be told they are incorrect. We can kindly prove ourselves "more likely" as a teacher would.

One thing I would like to address for the topic is the use of word science. Science is not knowledge that is undeniable/incontrovertible. Science is a way of studying and understanding the world through observation and experimentation.

Science is not for or against anything. In fact, we all practice science by simply observing and experimenting in our daily lives. From the way I see it, we should use the idea of science and apply it to one idea versus another idea (a simplification, of course). For example, if this thread will continue to focus on creationism versus evolution, the notion should be to prove by a preponderance of evidence towards one or the other.

I agree that I am a tad agressive. However, if you could sit through my life and see all the horrible things religion and reality denial causes and NOT be then you are a better person.

Not only do i disagree with you that "science is not knowledge that is undeniable/incontrovertible" but I am begging you to show evidence of this. So if I am in denial of the internet it ceases to be? There is a reason that there is no christian science, American science, Muslim science, Japanese science or even human science. It is science and it would work even if humans were wiped from the planet and replaced with self replicating sentient robots. And i hope you realize that if you somehow actually are able to show a more encompassing theory that fits the data better it becomes science right? Its a catch 22 any successful attempt only reinforces its validity and accuracy any failure ceases to do so There is no belief required - no belief can overcome science/reality.

There is no debate about creationism versus evolution. No serious one based in reality. If a person can't see that there is an absolutely overwhelming amount of evidence on one side and absolutely zero evidence on the other then a rational debate can't happen. It's really a catch 22.

The idea that science is not certain is a generally known part of the idea of science. It is difficult to find absolute proof but I will do my best. Here are some links. These are not perfect sources but they should provide some insight.

Certainty and Science (Wikipedia on Science): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science#Ce ... nd_science

SCIENCE IS NOT ABOUT CERTAINTY: A PHILOSOPHY OF PHYSICS: http://edge.org/conversation/a-philosophy-of-physics

Science is not about certainty: http://judithcurry.com/2012/05/30/scien ... certainty/

Science is the closest thing to certainty that one is able to achieve in reality. It is undeniable and incontrovertible. The only way to change it is to come up with new evidence that is testable and repeatable or to offer a theory that is a better fit, encompasses a larger set of applications or scope, or is a better fit for a specific set of conditions.

From your first link:
New scientific knowledge rarely results in vast changes in our understanding. According to psychologist Keith Stanovich, it may be the media's overuse of words like "breakthrough" that leads the public to imagine that science is constantly proving everything it thought was true to be false.[37] While there are such famous cases as the theory of relativity that required a complete reconceptualization, these are extreme exceptions. Knowledge in science is gained by a gradual synthesis of information from different experiments, by various researchers, across different branches of science; it is more like a climb than a leap.[38] Theories vary in the extent to which they have been tested and verified, as well as their acceptance in the scientific community.[39] For example, heliocentric theory, the theory of evolution, relativity theory, and germ theory still bear the name "theory" even though, in practice, they are considered factual.[40]

And I take serious offense at the above example of relativity because it DID NOT require any such reconception. For everyday objects and energies newtons laws are extremely extremely accurate - like 12 -18 significant figures far far beyond nearly any measurement even realized today. It only modified our understanding on scales and energies for which we did not take data at the time. Relativity simplifies to newtons laws at everyday scale. Remind me to mail my friend who edits Wikipedia. None of the data from newtons measurements has been refuted or 'disproved'. Again belief didn't figure in to this.

Second link : sure science is not 100% certain. But it is 100% certain it is the most certain system you can use. Take dark matter for example. There are multiple sources of evidence for its existence. Two different ones are of you look at the mass of a galaxy and apply newtons laws of motions to the stars you see them spin too fast. Something is holding them in a faster tighter orbit than the mass astronomers can account for. Another is gravitational lensing. Gravity bends the light sources from behind the galaxy and the bending is larger than the mass astronomers can account for. It sure looks like there is mass you cant see - dark matter. Uncertainty is in wheather this is from massive weakly interacting particles, or another source. Saying I disbelieve or ignoring the evidence or disseminating truth from ancient tomes dosent cut it. To offer any valid opinion requires adherence to science. That is incontrovertible and undeniable.

In fact if you want something truly insane quantum mechanics teaches us that everything is just Statistically true. There is a finite, but extremely remote, possibility that monkies could fly outta my ass. It would only take a fluctuation so obscenely rare it would require more particles than in the universe just to express the number of zeros in the odds. This in no way changes our beliefs as indeed even though air pressure is just statistically true life has dependably relied on it since it began.

The third source is similar to the second. In both it's trying to say that the uncertainty comes from a lack of complete information and the fact that we don't know everything yet. Not that the carefully collected data of hundreds of thousands of seperate scientists is a massive conspiracy to hide the truth from the unbelievers.

So yes in short science is not 100% certain of all things but in reality it is the best possible system for achieving the highest degree of certanity possible. There is nothing MORE certain. That is undeniable and incontrovertible.

Well maybe, energy can only be plentiful for so long though unless we find a way to break the second law of thermodynamics.

The second law simply states that order, as it relates to probability and concentrated energy, will always decrease. Energy always winds up being spent and diffused without the ability to concentrate it again at no cost - some will be irrevocably be unrecoverable.

There are implications that imply time flow from this flow of entropy. There are also implications for the final state of the universe in the far future. It dosent say anything about the limits of how much energy we can use here on earth. After all we aren't a closed system here on earth we are surrounded by space and the rest of the universe.

I expect cheap energy to come in the form of fusion from material we can extract from seawater and other sources. There is so much fuel for fusion (millions to billions the amout in all fossil fuels) that when it becomes practical it is highly likely it will eventually result in cheap clean energy like humanity has never seen. The sun works so no one really doubts its possible. And it seems like we are relatively close (a few decades) to making this start to happen.

I just took another look throughout this thread and everyone seems to be concerned with information in regards to evolution. Instead of disproving evolution, why not add some evidence for creationism?

i like this, i do find that often when backed up against the wall people on both sides of the argument are quicker to look for flaws in the other belief than actually back up their own



@plus3 i do think you need to be less aggressive in your posting. people are not stupid for not sharing the same beliefs as you, they have simply grown up and learned about life in different circumstances, you should look to educate rather than tell them their beliefs are wrong because no human likes to be told their belief system around which their entire lie has revolved is wrong. science is also not as undeniable as you seem to think, yes there is much proof but lots of the time that proof, and how it is interpreted can change, that is the beauty of science it is not set in stone and we can never truly know everything about it.

i, am an atheist myself but i do understand why religion and faith came about. what i do not understand is when people put heir backs up and refuse what can not be dis proven


evolution does not disprove a higher power, but the potential for a higher power does not in any way disprove evolution

I have never wanted nor am interested in 'having people believe what I believe'. Not accepting what are facts is a different story. In Europe you can be thrown in jail for hollocaust denial because it isn't a belief and is extremely hurtful to people. Reality denial is like that and should in my opinion also be a crime.

Notice I haven't put forth one argument disproving god specifically. Just against things like sex slavery isn't in the bible and evolution isn't right.

I'm not sure where you are from pigman - Europe? Because in America it isn't funny or a laughing matter. Vaccine denial kills people and is spread by pseudo religious propaganda. Denial in the sciences is hurting the medical Industry and putting us back effectively killing people. It's really bad where I live and it affects everyone over here.

Science is completely undeniable and incontrovertible. You are posting using it lol. That dosent mean there is no room for improvement or that it has an answer for everything at this point. I even provided an example of how evolution was improved through better understanding of the level at which genes are selected for. Saying it changes is highly highly misleading. Newtons laws, for the size and energy scope they describe, have always been true and will always be true forever. Quantum mechanics and relativity describe different size and energy scales but simplify to newtons laws at the appropiate scale. They will never be undone because any addition to theory has to accommodate that data which will never be "disproven". Saying its a belief is like saying that your computer wont work if you don't believe or that drone strikes will only kill you if you doubt. It's nonsense.

I understand your point about education though as you've noticed I provide lots of links and evidence and material.

When people are indoctrinated from a young age it becomes nearly impossible to gently coax them to reason. It is highly offensive to hand wave away hundreds of thousands of human lifetimes to carefully accumulate data and say a mythical ancient tome that spews barbarism is the answer.

Thank you Pigman for at least trying to calm him.

Plus3, I know the vaccine thing is a problem in some places, maybe you have a personal history with it, I don't know, but that is a very specific problem from some wackos. I know quite a few Christians, some Muslims and Jews and other religions, and not one of these people has held themselves away from any type of medical help including vaccines when they need it. Saying that no one should be religious because of that one specific problem is like trying to heal a broken finger by cutting off the arm, its a little overkill.

Out of all the people I know (and I know a lot of people), the religious people in almost every case (regardless of specific religion) are much more pleasant than the atheists and overall, much happier. They are held to a moral standard, an atheist is not held to anything except the law. Sure there are always exceptions, there are wackos and extremists and generally bad people, but those people would probably be wackos, extremists and law breakers regardless of religion.
I fail to see any logic in your apparent hate toward religion (if that is not how you meant it, you definitely need to reevaluate your methods) other than a personal bad experience, which is none of my business, but this is the wrong place to bring it out. Notice even the people who agree with you are disagreeing with you? They (myself included don't disagree with what you are saying, they disagree with how you are saying it and why you are saying it. The only one agreeing with you is a 14 year old kid whose posts are very offensive and I am amazed the admins have let him say some of the things he has.

Evolution is not proved as absolute, undeniable truth, and until it is, people are free to believe whatever they want. You of course have the freedom to deride and insult it as much as you want (though I am pretty sure OTM says they don't allow discrimination based on religious affiliation on the forums), but that does not reflect well on your character.

Anyway, I'm done. Supporting views I don' completely hold myself just for the sake of equality is a pain and I am tired of everything I say going in one ear and out the other. Maybe you and Magixal will actually read this post and try acting civilized. For now, I'm tired of arguing with walls and if this thread gets any worse I will ask for it to be locked. This is supposed to be a discussion about religion where the original poster asked people to tell him about what they believed, now its just a self-defeating argument where people throw around insults and talk past each other.

No one is going to change the way they live their life because some guy on an MMO forum called them ignorant and insulted their beliefs.