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Re: A discussion about religion

#531
Again, I see attempts to disprove God. Where are the attempts to prove that God exists?

I am not trying to be rude but if someone actually does try to find proof by quoting scripture... I will facepalm unless there are other sources.
I did make an argument for the existence of a god earlier, and I don't think anyone has given any objections to it or comments on it yet.
Personally, if asked, I would say the most likely explanation is that the universe came from "a god". God meaning something that operates outside of the laws of our universe. Here is my logic behind this:

Assuming the universe exists and is not all simply my imagination and I do not exist, there are three possible scenarios: The universe has always existed, the universe created itself, or something outside of the universe created the universe.

The universe cannot have always existed and have no beginning because eternity is a logical impossibility. Also since thermodynamics states that the entropy of the universe is increasing and the universe is tending toward chaos, at some point, a state of pure chaos must be reached and life will be unable to exist. This state will only take a finite amount of time to be reached, but if the universe has exited for an eternity than any finite amount of time has already passed and pure chaos will have been reached an eternity ago. The fact that we exist proves the universe had a beginning.

If the universe created itself than it directly defies its own law that matter cannot be created or destroyed, making the universe operate outside its own laws and therefore classifying the universe as a god because it operated outside of the laws of the universe. The universe operating outside of itself is a contradiction and the laws of thermodynamics must be rejected in order for it to be possible. Note that there are religions that worship the universe itself as a god (pantheism)

If something outside of the laws of the universe existed before the universe and created the universe and all the laws that govern it, we could logically have the state of the universe that we have today while accepting the laws of thermodynamics. This is the most logical explanation which is why I choose to belive that the universe was created by a god.

I have heard the big bang theory used to state that either nothing exploded and created everything (the universe created itself) which is an explanation of the origin of the universe but must be classified as pantheism, or that something exploded and formed everything, in which case the something had to have come from somewhere making this not an explanation of the true origin, but rather an avoidance of the actual question (a logical fallacy).
Actually, Einstein's E=mc2 shows us that energy and mass are essentially the same thing, which is why when we take matter and anti-matter and put them together there is a release of energy, so in theory there has to be a backwards method to this. And just because we were made in a finite time doesn't mean the universe cant be infinite, and even if this is so, why choose to believe christianity over all other religions?
And you have grossly mis-interpreted what happened in the Big Bang, in the Big Bang two branes/universes (they are called branes in the sciencey world) collided and merged, or one brane split, and that is how we exist, also the centre point of the Big Bang would have been a singularity/black hole of a supermassive size
The fact that energy and matter are equivelant and that the energy in the visible universe is constant and that energy cannot be created or destroyed is very interesting. For example as the visable universe expands we see new stars and such form, but this matter is borrowed from the gravitational field at the edge of the visible universe. Information (as in the descriptive mathematics behind particles) also cannot be created or destroyed - not even if thrown into a black hole. Additionally the entropy thing is often misunderstood. The universe started with near zero entropy and will increase forever as far as we can tell. But that's essentially just a way of saying that the initial energy was highly concentrated in a small volume and is expanding into a larger volume forever. These conditions are what are very curious and provide clues to future research and theory.

The brane hypothesis of the origin of the Big Bang is a good one with alot of energy and research going into it but Id add it isn't a theory status yet. For example the branes near ours would suck up some gravity so gravity would bleed away to them and vice versa which makes it testable. There really isn't a center point of the Big Bang from our perspective. Odd thing is where ever you are in the universe - you are always at the visible center. People have looked a long time for some type of order on the largest scales - some anisotropy that would be a clue as to a center - or looked at the background radiation from the big bang which is still visible - but havent found and solid evidence. So it is the leading theory that there isn't a center from our 3 dimensional space and time perspective but that dosent mean in some higher dimensional space there was not one.

Its nearly a fact that it came from a singularity (just meaning so much energy in such a small point it would collapse under normal circumstances). There is lots of evidence for that.
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Re: A discussion about religion

#532
Actually if you want bizzare reality tops any fiction.

Because you are always at the center of the universe your own two eyes see the center of slightly different universes. Your left eye sees a few inches farther than your right and vice versa. So your body dosent all exist in the same visible universe.

Even weirder is you do not exist at the same time - technically there is no 'present'. The fastest information travels is light speed. Your own brain is a few nano light seconds across. So your conciousness does not even exist in the same timeframe - you are spread out through time and exist only in the past not the 'present'. Nor do the parts of your body. Each particle is leading in time with influences from the past of other particles in your body.

Your senses pick up on only the tiniest part of reality. Many particles and wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation (ultra violet, infra red, radio waves, etc) pass you by without you being aware. It is undeniable what we experience is but a mental illusion of a tiny fraction of what is real around us, and at a 'frame rate' and resolution that leaves 99.9999999999999999999999999 (many more 9s) % of what is real unperceived.
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Re: A discussion about religion

#533
Ive read bits and pieces of this, but Ive noticed plus3 says people should be jailed for 'denying reality'

1: People are Unique, and have different ideas and beliefs. No one is the same, even twins.

2: You like talking about America this and America that. America was built on several principles, one being religious freedom.

3: When someone comes into a topic such as this so closed minded, Its hard to believe them, especially with faulty evidence.

Edit: For those wondering why God allowed things like the Holocaust, He did give humans free will.

Eve chose to eat the apple, provoked by the Devil (Who creates confusion), Causing Adam and herself to have sin and death, which is why we have no immortality. Then they reproduced, and caused all of humanity to have sin. This is why Jesus came to die for our sins, to give us another chance. God is love, and he loves us. He saw we couldnt pay for our sins, so he did.
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Re: A discussion about religion

#534
I do not understand... Are you saying we got free will as a punishment because Eve ate the apple? The bible says God still intervened in human affairs even after Eve ate the apple, hence all the "magical" events in the stories that make up the bible.

How far does free will go and what exactly does it encompass? Free will for every person or humanity as a whole? Why not determine the majority will of humanity or protect individual will? Too many questions and contradictions.
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Re: A discussion about religion

#535
We got free will originally, before Eve ate the apple. God told them they were basically Immortal and Invincible if they didnt eat the apple.

The snake/satan appeared, telling her that she would know everything, and God didnt want her to know.

Having free will, she ate an apple and knew good and evil. Sin was born of her decision, as was Death and Destruction.

Does this clear it up?
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117+ Druid (Main) RedDogy
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World: Morrigan
Clan: Looking for clan. (Old one was dead)
Current: Class Balance is a must!

Don't Judge a book by its cover.

There are 3 types of people in this world. Those that can count, and those that can't.

Re: A discussion about religion

#536
I do not understand... Are you saying we got free will as a punishment because Eve ate the apple? The bible says God still intervened in human affairs even after Eve ate the apple, hence all the "magical" events in the stories that make up the bible.

How far does free will go and what exactly does it encompass? Free will for every person or humanity as a whole? Why not determine the majority will of humanity or protect individual will? Too many questions and contradictions.
God wants us to truly believe in Him and love Him. That is why he gave us free will. Also, in response to one of your earlier questions of why God does not come down to earth: God is not an object. God is love, which is obviously something that we cannot fully comprehend as humans. Even if we did know that He existed after his appearance (if he was an object), then we definitely do not have to love Him. If you really believe in Him, you are believing in love, so how can you not love love - the most perfect thing and savior of all - if you have some concept of its existence? If you believe in God, but do not love him, then it makes absolutely no sense. I read a verse related to this earlier today.
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Re: A discussion about religion

#537
Ive read bits and pieces of this, but Ive noticed plus3 says people should be jailed for 'denying reality'

1: People are Unique, and have different ideas and beliefs. No one is the same, even twins.

2: You like talking about America this and America that. America was built on several principles, one being religious freedom.

3: When someone comes into a topic such as this so closed minded, Its hard to believe them, especially with faulty evidence.

Edit: For those wondering why God allowed things like the Holocaust, He did give humans free will.

Eve chose to eat the apple, provoked by the Devil (Who creates confusion), Causing Adam and herself to have sin and death, which is why we have no immortality. Then they reproduced, and caused all of humanity to have sin. This is why Jesus came to die for our sins, to give us another chance. God is love, and he loves us. He saw we couldnt pay for our sins, so he did.
Yes for serious reality denial crimes people should be jailed. If you think the hallocaust is a 'belief' I suggest staying away from Germany.

Europe already has this law for hallocaust denial. For obvious reasons.

So if I spread anti-vaccine propaganda and it directly results in the DEATHS of several hundred to several thousand people per year that's not a crime? In the face of overwhelming evidence? I'm not talking about where there is no way to show claims one way or the other like much of modern mythology (religion) but denial of reality with so much evidence and so obvious it is criminal.
Member of Aeon - Taranis - 24 boxer
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Re: A discussion about religion

#538
We got free will originally, before Eve ate the apple. God told them they were basically Immortal and Invincible if they didnt eat the apple.

The snake/satan appeared, telling her that she would know everything, and God didnt want her to know.

Having free will, she ate an apple and knew good and evil. Sin was born of her decision, as was Death and Destruction.

Does this clear it up?
Yes you blame women and evil talking snakes for the problems in the world.
Member of Aeon - Taranis - 24 boxer
220+ toons
Ravenleaf druid - Silverstring ranger
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Toon histogram:
Level_____|200+|150-199|100-149|50-99|20-49|1-19|
# of toons|_5__|___16___|____3___|__11__|__21_|407|

Re: A discussion about religion

#539
I never denied the holocaust. Plus, its a different matter then evolution. And why dont we bring up things like gravity? Evolution is the topic that goes with religion.

If you could bring up how gravity affects religion, be my guest.
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117+ Druid (Main) RedDogy
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World: Morrigan
Clan: Looking for clan. (Old one was dead)
Current: Class Balance is a must!

Don't Judge a book by its cover.

There are 3 types of people in this world. Those that can count, and those that can't.

Re: A discussion about religion

#540
We got free will originally, before Eve ate the apple. God told them they were basically Immortal and Invincible if they didnt eat the apple.

The snake/satan appeared, telling her that she would know everything, and God didnt want her to know.

Having free will, she ate an apple and knew good and evil. Sin was born of her decision, as was Death and Destruction.

Does this clear it up?
Yes you blame women and evil talking snakes for the problems in the world.
Why are you so against people that can make their own choices? If I hold Religion over 'Evolution' thats my choice. I wish you werent so closed minded.

I listen to you aggressive debate, and I reply peacefully, yet you seem to hate me with every ounce of your being because Im telling you the religious side of things.
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117+ Druid (Main) RedDogy
70+ Ranger
63+ Rogue
World: Morrigan
Clan: Looking for clan. (Old one was dead)
Current: Class Balance is a must!

Don't Judge a book by its cover.

There are 3 types of people in this world. Those that can count, and those that can't.

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