Celtic Heroes

Just one quick thing. Vraelen u said that u believed in ordered chaos. Ordered chaos? That sounds a little contradictory. How cn chaos be ordered? Chaos means, well, confusion and well a lot of other things. Chaos is not ordered. When an office is on fire usually everyone runs around screaming and panicking. This is chaos. As far as i knw i have never seen things being chaotic in an orderly way. Just sayin.

*give me an example outside evolution in which there was orderly chaos.

It is an oxymoron, I know. I say "ordered chaos" for lack of a better term/phrase. There is a clear level of organisation present in the universe but at the same time, there is also a clear abundance of chaos. I do not know how to explain this combination but the fact is, almost everything we study is both chaotic and ordered. Thus, we exist in an ordered chaos.

An easy to understand example would be digestion. We break down food, which creates disorder, only to later absorb and reconfigure the material to suit our needs. The digestion of food, whilst immediately creating chaos, brings about a greater order necessary for our survival. I hope this idea makes sense. I will try to think of another "common" example if need be.

Crystallization is a commonly used example. From a chemical mixture of swirling chaotic fluid grows a nearly perfectly ordered crystal. Extremely well organized - some microscopic ones are even perfect with no defects at all. No organisms no evolutionary principles involved.

I'm closed to non factual views, views that can't be supported by logical argument, and views that are obviously founded on nothing but belief and yet are portrayed as factual - this includes views from authority outside the first two points. Yes. Other than that I am extremely open to ideas. In fact I helplessly go where the facts reveal actual truth. Something everyone should do.

Athiests tend to be smarter (intellectual quotient wise) and far more informed of religious writings and facts than religious people. This is only a statistical fact though, it is not factual about any particular individual.

And yes after 50 pages it's obvious facts and logical argument get us no where at all.

Everyone judges events even if they consciously try not to. If you want we can have a discussion about the statement above but I doubt you will like it.

This topic is a discussion, so we can go ahead and discuss it.

And yes, it is obvious that we will get you no where even with nearly every poster who is active on this thread disagreeing with you or your methods except one 14 year old, you still refuse to budge. You can try pointing at yourself for once, you are so ready to point at everyone else s problems.

Ahh, there is a lot here that does make sense. It does not specifically say that we must worship but there is a general impression that we should love and praise God. You mention above that the devil tempts us to test our love for god. Does that mean love is mandatory?

I am still puzzled as to why explanations and lessons in religion are so human and so instant. God snaps the universe into existance. Person A does action B which creates big phenomena AB, etc. I know my explanation for the question is still terrible. Sorry. :/

The idea that a god would create the universe to be self sustaining makes a lot of sense. I was kinda merging the perspectives of god into that question; it really applies more to people who believe god is still all controlling and is managing the universe right now.

I do certainly believe it is possible the universe is sentient or there is a sentient force maintaining the universe. It is just my opinion that we honestly live in an ordered chaos where we are no more important than a microorganism in the overall existence of everything.

Basically from the Bible I understand it like this: Life tests whether you love or hate God, if you love God you will want to spend eternity with him. If you hate God you will not want to be with him, but the only other eternal place is hell. Hell is basically the absence of God. So looking at it that way I suppose you could say love is mandatory. This is an interesting characteristic of Christianity, it is based on love, not works, in spite of common misrepresentation.

I am not sure what you are asking here, but explanations are usually human because they are to humans, so I suppose the point is to make explanations relevant, understandable and applicable if that is what you meant.

I think most believe God is able to control but does not micromanage and allows humans to do what they will for the most part.

The universe being sentient sounds like an interesting discussion to have.

I did answer it. God told them they would die if they ate fruit off that tree. They understood that. And yet they still disobeyed. They may not have known it was "sin" but they knew that there would be consequences for disobeying.

First off who is they? Adam did nothing wrong in your mysogenistic story. Second while they may have understood the words how was eve to know it was evil or wrong? How would she know disobeying what was said by god one minute, and gods creation the next was evil or wrong? You just answered by 'they understood that'' but the evidence is that they were not given that rational functionality as the story itself states.

Moreover without knowledge of good or evil it's a wonder Adam didn't simply bash eve's skull open for snoring. Afterall no knowledge right? Today we call that lack of knowledge being sociopathic.

Congrats at not replying on the homosexual bigot comment you made. I dare you to reason yourself out of its absurdity.

Adam did do something wrong. He willingly ate the fruit. God told them that they would die if they ate the fruit. Satan told them that they would be like God. They listened to satan. They walked with God every day. They knew that they should obey God. He made it clear to them that if they ate the fruit they would die. They just chose to make excuses and they chose to believe Satan.

What bigoted statement? I said that homosexuality is wrong and i will stand by that.

Satan was the snake. If you read my posts before you would see that. I'm tired of you and Magics "Not Sciency" enough.

As for anyone else you has no problem listening. I will reply and help best I can.

I'm closed to non factual views, views that can't be supported by logical argument, and views that are obviously founded on nothing but belief and yet are portrayed as factual - this includes views from authority outside the first two points. Yes. Other than that I am extremely open to ideas. In fact I helplessly go where the facts reveal actual truth. Something everyone should do.

Athiests tend to be smarter (intellectual quotient wise) and far more informed of religious writings and facts than religious people. This is only a statistical fact though, it is not factual about any particular individual.

And yes after 50 pages it's obvious facts and logical argument get us no where at all.

Everyone judges events even if they consciously try not to. If you want we can have a discussion about the statement above but I doubt you will like it.

This topic is a discussion, so we can go ahead and discuss it.

And yes, it is obvious that we will get you no where even with nearly every poster who is active on this thread disagreeing with you or your methods except one 14 year old, you still refuse to budge. You can try pointing at yourself for once, you are so ready to point at everyone else s problems.

I have no problem accepting facts and truth. Why not try 'pointing' at problems I may have. Good luck because I don't accept factless belief so there is little if any to debunk. Any factless belief I do have is insubstantial to me. I actually welcome it as if I am in fact incorrect I would like to know. Not like my not knowing alters reality. Nor does it matter if no one agrees on some mmorpg forum. You are the one having to live with reality denial.

I'd like to point out that evolution is wrong or close to it. That means it's a factless belief right? I suggest you drop it.

Might go against your 'having no wrong beliefs'

Shall I throw in God is real too? I added you as a foe for being so closed minded.

I did answer it. God told them they would die if they ate fruit off that tree. They understood that. And yet they still disobeyed. They may not have known it was "sin" but they knew that there would be consequences for disobeying.

First off who is they? Adam did nothing wrong in your mysogenistic story. Second while they may have understood the words how was eve to know it was evil or wrong? How would she know disobeying what was said by god one minute, and gods creation the next was evil or wrong? You just answered by 'they understood that'' but the evidence is that they were not given that rational functionality as the story itself states.

Moreover without knowledge of good or evil it's a wonder Adam didn't simply bash eve's skull open for snoring. Afterall no knowledge right? Today we call that lack of knowledge being sociopathic.

Congrats at not replying on the homosexual bigot comment you made. I dare you to reason yourself out of its absurdity.

Adam did do something wrong. He willingly ate the fruit. God told them that they would die if they ate the fruit. Satan told them that they would be like God. They listened to satan. They walked with God every day. They knew that they should obey God. He made it clear to them that if they ate the fruit they would die. They just chose to make excuses and they chose to believe Satan.

What bigoted statement? I said that homosexuality is wrong and i will stand by that.

First take a look here :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry
It means you are a bigot if you distrust - view them in contempt- Or are intolerant of - or are prejudiced against someone's sexual orientation. So yes it is a bigoted comment. Christians, especially evangelicals, are the biggest anti-gay bigot group around.

You still haven't addressed the point god made them gay then watches them squirm as the try not to be as god made them.

Second I am asserting they did not know what good or evil was as that is what the story claims - they would gain this if they ate from the tree. Eve was convinced by gods creation because she had no knowledge of good or bad. Adam simply ate it because eve presented it. There is a logical fallacy at work here - it is obvious whoever wrote the story that it wasn't well thought through. God obviously created them incapable of rationalizing it yet 'tested' them and it was an obvious result. Not sure why god would need to test given omniscience and omnipotence but that could be a seperate discussion.

Third there are two somewhat conflicting genesis stories obviously written by two different people - likely hundreds of years apart. Both play in closely to earlier myths but that can be another topic. Either adam and eve were made at the same time or not. There is some question if Adam was simply given dominion over the plants and animals in Eden or something else. The order of creation differs between the two. Both can't be 100% correct - tell me which is the real one. (that's a trick question btw).

I'd like to point out that evolution is wrong or close to it. That means it's a factless belief right? I suggest you drop it.

Might go against your 'having no wrong beliefs'

Shall I throw in God is real too? I added you as a foe for being so closed minded.

Yes evolution is a cold hard fact. You are in denial of reality. Might as well add 'unbiased reality' to your foe list but be warned - I'm not going to do anything except try to help u come to your seneses.

Reality is an uncaring *************. Your disbelief will likely end in a head on high speed collision with reality. Hope you don't hurt yourself or others with your willing blindness.

And while I can't show the premise of a Christian god to be false - there is no way to 'disprove it' I have the same level of respect and belief in it as the tooth fairy and santaclaus - for there is the same level of evidence and logical foundation.

First take a look here :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry
It means you are a bigot if you distrust - view them in contempt- Or are intolerant of - or are prejudiced against someone's sexual orientation. So yes it is a bigoted comment. Christians, especially evangelicals, are the biggest anti-gay bigot group around.

You still haven't addressed the point god made them gay then watches them squirm as the try not to be as god made them.

Second I am asserting they did not know what good or evil was as that is what the story claims - they would gain this if they ate from the tree. Eve was convinced by gods creation because she had no knowledge of good or bad. Adam simply ate it because eve presented it. There is a logical fallacy at work here - it is obvious whoever wrote the story that it wasn't well thought through. God obviously created them incapable of rationalizing it yet 'tested' them and it was an obvious result. Not sure why god would need to test given omniscience and omnipotence but that could be a seperate discussion.

Third there are two somewhat conflicting genesis stories obviously written by two different people - likely hundreds of years apart. Both play in closely to earlier myths but that can be another topic. Either adam and eve were made at the same time or not. There is some question if Adam was simply given dominion over the plants and animals in Eden or something else. The order of creation differs between the two. Both can't be 100% correct - tell me which is the real one. (that's a trick question btw).[/quote]

There are no contradictions in the bible. Period. It's funny. You try and use the Bible against me. Well the bible also says that God will give you no temptation beyond which you are able to withstand. Homosexuality is wrong. If you want to call me a bigot for saying it thats fine. I do not hate people because they are homo. I do not fear people because they are homo. Adam and Eve had a choice. They were not dumb. They talked with the wisest being every day. Who knows what they learned. I dnt know how much they knew but i don't think they were the poor, totally gullible machines you make them out to be.

You say that the bible is false. Well give me one historical or scientific fact that the bible states that has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt wrong.