Celtic Heroes

Sneaky attack can only be used to start the battle am i right? after that its all autos quickstrike, and what other skills?

Is shadowstrike good with a strength build? or does it get tossed out.

I'm just curious, my experience with rogues is limited but i was just wondering because this is a very interesting post when you read through the whole thing.

What skills do you use with strength build?

Sneaky attack can only be used to start the battle am i right? after that its all autos quickstrike, and what other skills?

Is shadowstrike good with a strength build? or does it get tossed out.

I'm just curious, my experience with rogues is limited but i was just wondering because this is a very interesting post when you read through the whole thing.

What skills do you use with strength build?

Sneaky can be casted if you are not targeted. If you solo, yes, it's casted to start the battle. However, pure DPS builds are usually used for bossing, and when you have a tank in group, you're not usually targeted by the boss. That means sneaky can be fired at will.

I'm not sure if I can consider myself full strength as I have 425 dex, but I still use ss, which hits for (imo) a decent 3k page dmg. And then I use qs, double, sneaky and assassinate to round out the str skills.

As for Skain set vs Sneaky charm, I'd agree and go for Wyld Ammy instead.

I would disagree however on skills being the "king" for dps. Three of the (imo) most powerful str kills (sneaky, assassinate, double) are based off of your auto damage, at least partly.

Additionally, over time, your autos will theoretically deal perhaps 80% of damage dealt. This takes into account skill cast time and reset, and assumes that all skills are cast as soon as they can be.

I can show you my calculations but I won't. :-P

Depends on what you wanna kill.
Hybrid dex or str builds are usually my go to, all while maximising attack, because as inaliel corectly stated, about 80% (maybe a little less) of all of your damage is auto attacks.

Hybrid dex will get kills at raid bosses (besides necro, cuz duh) dl, and skain.

Hybrid str is king in tower.

LONG DPS RANT PART 1

My build atm is 910 str, 1025 dex. My base attack is 7009, damage with pw 2751 (edl off, dl dagg, dont make fun of me arcs are rare in epona -.-) ss 4k, qs 3.7, sneaky 10.5k, rend 950 if i swap cast. On atk lix my atk reaches 8900.

Many on forums will argue that str build is the best, but while str skills are indeed better for edl bosses, theyre not the end all be all best. Ss in tower is equivalent to qs (but misses a bit more) and is still a very viable skill.

My damage with 100% str is 2.9k. My sneak is 11.7k. I only gain 1.2k dmg to sneak adding 500 more points to it, but lose 900 ss dmg, 30 pw, and almost 700 attack, which is close to 900 on lix.

Keep in mind these things:
1. while my auto damage has increased by almost 200, pierce damage is resisted highly by all 6* bosses, including with pierce lure, and i have just lost 1/10 of my attack, meaning not only would i only be gaining maybe 30-80 dmg per auto to begin with (at best), but i would also be a fair bit less accurate, and hinder proc chance somewhat by doing so.
2. Idk if you guys have tested your sneaky dmg at edl (or raid) bosses, but with shatter and lure, it rarely reaches 3k at 10.5k. Meaning it only does less than a third of the stated dmg. Adding 1.2k more damage may seem nice, but its actually adding maybe 150-350 dmg per sneak, with shatter and lure, and you can only cast this skill once every 30s. More with sneaky charm but gara sets are better anyways, so idk why youd nerf your dps like that.
3. Ss on the other hand can be cast every 12s. 900 dmg loss is an incredible amount for a skill so often used (if you use it) it decreases potential damage done by 25% total on dl/mord/hrung. On edl it will do about 1/3-3/8 of its regular damage depending on the boss you kill. For example on 205 full at 4k ss, my ss topped out at 1600, but on 200 full (dobby) it topped out at 1900. Even resisted, 1/3-3/8s of 900 dmg is still 300-400 ss dmg per ss. Meaning if you hit only 1/3 of your ss thrughout the fight, the gain in ss will still outdo the gain in sneaky.


PART 2


Now about the whole 'wyld ammy is better than skain set' thing.. The wyld ammy cooldown is 45s. And will do on average 1/3 (depending on lure and shatter), or 1000 dmg every 45s.

Over 15 mins thats 20 casts which comes to a grand total of 20k dmg.

Now lets say you have a godly sneaky charm, decreasing cooldown by 25%. Your sneaky cooldown went from 30s to 22.5
In 15 minutes of fighting without the charm, you can cast sneaky 30 times. With the charm 40 times.
Lets say sneaky does my avg of about 2.5 every time (no shatter because you will not be able to efficiently always cast on a shatter, but still with lure)

70k dmg with no charm, 100k with

Grand total of 125k dmg with godly sneak and wyld ammy, or a gain of 55k dps, not bad

With poison set, on edls (dl mord hrung another story) you will auto (based on ss resist) 1/3-3/8 the 200 dmg, meaning about 70 dmg per auto attack. At speed cap, you will auto every 1.1s.

In 15 minutes you will have autoed 818 times, for a total of ~57260 dmg from the 200 poison alone.

Add in the sneaky dmg (not charm boosted) for a total of 127k dps.

Of course this doesnt factor in misses from auto/wyld ammy, sneaky auto cancels (which happen to both parites, so i said screw it), orrrrr, and heres the big one:

the loss of 255 stat points in ammy and charm alone, with the 200 auto dmg loss on top of it. This means that not only my sneaky, but every single skill i have would be weaker with the wyld/godly sneak charm combo, which i dont have the patience to do the calcs for.

Wyld/GODLY charm (which so few have) may still edge on some edl and necro, i could do the skill dmg differential calcs for each skill affected but ffs thats too much work.



TLDR; why would you want to be the best at a couple bosses with a full str or full dex build, or the wyld/godly sneak charm combo, when you have the ability to be the best at all of them with a hybrid build/skain set.

P.s. It is now midnight and i am exhausted, if i did any calcs wrong or forgot any crucial details, be sure to roast me so i can correct myself.

Beautiful. I tried to do the calculations and Alaratos has a point. While I'm still not entirely convinced of the Wyldshrine+SneakyCharm vs Skain set thing (I have my own calculations), I did realize the folly of putting too much into one basket (either full str or full dex). A more hybrid build is the way to go.

Funny coz before I saw this post, I just finished rebirthing from high str build to a more balanced one and the diff in auto damage was ~3%, while the increase in ss dmg was >10%.

Beautiful. I tried to do the calculations and Alaratos has a point. While I'm still not entirely convinced of the Wyldshrine+SneakyCharm vs Skain set thing (I have my own calculations), I did realize the folly of putting too much into one basket (either full str or full dex). A more hybrid build is the way to go.

Funny coz before I saw this post, I just finished rebirthing from high str build to a more balanced one and the diff in auto damage was ~3%, while the increase in ss dmg was >10%.

Wyld and godly charm prob do have an edge on edl, but im not gonna adjust my whole setup for a slight advantage on a select few bosses... (If i had godly sneak charm)

I skimmed through alaratos' post and it seems mostly right from what I've seen.

One issue is that you can't really be sure how much of a difference a certain item is making cause there are so many variables. The relationship between your attack and the percentage of autos landing depends on boss defense. The percentage of skills landing also depends both on your cunning and the boss evasion abilities. One can only speculate how much the cunning from the sneaky charm actually improves dps in the long run.

One thing to note is that with the ring slot, what you choose there could potentially be way better than the skain ring and make up for lost dps from the other two items. Highly unlikely this could happen, but just as an example what if someone has 4 royal+ necro dagger ability rings? Then it may be advantageous to swap out the skain ring for one of those bad boys and use non-skain necklace and charm.

Additionally, you also need to factor in the regens of the lux ammy. Tbh I don't have anywhere near a high level rogue so I can't say what the energy costs are like, but if you're unable to skill spam with a skain set on e lix you're also losing out on dps.

The only way you could really 100% test a build, is by solo dpsing on mordris/necro/edls. As in, you have the tank and druids plus people keeping adds off you and you flat out dps until rage, then make a mark on your ipad screen exactly where the hp bar was when you finished. Then switch to a different build and repeat. Then maybe repeat trials 4 times for each build to account for dmg fluctuations and evasions. And even if you did that, your screen might not have enough pixels to show any difference in hp bar lol. An alternative would be to let two rogues with the exact same level and weapons/armor solo dps on one of those bosses and see who gets lock first with different build. But you also have user error among other problems there. Regardless it would be a massive waste of clan time and resources to do either of those (unless someone has a more efficient idea?)

What would be exciting to watch is if the top rogues got into an organized group next beta and competed for boss kills

I skimmed through alaratos' post and it seems mostly right from what I've seen.

One issue is that you can't really be sure how much of a difference a certain item is making cause there are so many variables. The relationship between your attack and the percentage of autos landing depends on boss defense. The percentage of skills landing also depends both on your cunning and the boss evasion abilities. One can only speculate how much the cunning from the sneaky charm actually improves dps in the long run.

One thing to note is that with the ring slot, what you choose there could potentially be way better than the skain ring and make up for lost dps from the other two items. Highly unlikely this could happen, but just as an example what if someone has 4 royal+ necro dagger ability rings? Then it may be advantageous to swap out the skain ring for one of those bad boys and use non-skain necklace and charm.

Additionally, you also need to factor in the regens of the lux ammy. Tbh I don't have anywhere near a high level rogue so I can't say what the energy costs are like, but if you're unable to skill spam with a skain set on e lix you're also losing out on dps.

The only way you could really 100% test a build, is by solo dpsing on mordris/necro/edls. As in, you have the tank and druids plus people keeping adds off you and you flat out dps until rage, then make a mark on your ipad screen exactly where the hp bar was when you finished. Then switch to a different build and repeat. Then maybe repeat trials 4 times for each build to account for dmg fluctuations and evasions. And even if you did that, your screen might not have enough pixels to show any difference in hp bar lol. An alternative would be to let two rogues with the exact same level and weapons/armor solo dps on one of those bosses and see who gets lock first with different build. But you also have user error among other problems there. Regardless it would be a massive waste of clan time and resources to do either of those (unless someone has a more efficient idea?)

What would be exciting to watch is if the top rogues got into an organized group next beta and competed for boss kills

ill sure.. join the top rogue experiment.. well well sigils is all you need

Sigils help your dps? And nah I meant top rogues, not just high level rogues. You couldn't even kill my mage in pvp with evaded lure

What would be exciting to watch is if the top rogues got into an organized group next beta and competed for boss kills

This would be very fun, but also incredibly hard to organize... Gotta factor in time zones, and also make sure that not one of the rogues casts offhand skill, to be on more even grounds/not rely on a power skill that can basically guarantee kill if you get enough ticks