Celtic Heroes

The Official Forum for Celtic Heroes, the 3D MMORPG for iOS and Android Devices

Two months later...Looking back at the 3rd Update

#1
I am interested to see what people think in general about the good/bad & ugly of the 3rd Update. Looking at it in reflection, coupled with all the ups and downs of many issues in the last months and quite a few triumphs as well.

I can say for myself...seeing finally players geting their abilities high enough to where a tank is actually evading boss attacks, or Shield Bashing Boss Heals( by timing the Nuke/Heal pattern to bash during the nuke to catch the heal) or groups learning how to define Area of Effect Radius of boss spells like Quake or Deluge.. The fact is all these things take time.. To learn, to adjust to...

When the Update was first released people weren't adjusted: I'm not pretending that the issues player's had were all on them and not the game's clunky update Arrival. But so many posts claiming that the game was broken or ruined or over... Obviously some issues existed that were patched out, ability's and their quests were bugged to hell, SV mob's were too hard, various bosses weren't functioning correctly in their regens, skills were tweaked, player regen effected. But the true big change was that players learnt the new ropes of the system, learnt the jewelry, the stat builds, the game's patching finally allowed skills to be dropped and able to be gathered. And the Update was realized for it's potential.

So what are your thoughts now, nearing 2 months after, it certainly wasn't a graceful transition, but looking at what the game offered in Update 2 & what it offers now...what are your thoughts?

I feel like this discussion is important for both the game community and for the company. Serious mistakes by both were made, including the beta testing community. But I think we can learn from it if everyone compares notes.
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Teaweasel 121 Druid (Morrigan, Clan: Avalon, On Hiatus)
Teaweasel 133 Druid (Arawn, Retired)
Best Build is a 30/30 in Thinking for yerself ;)

Re: Two months later...Looking back at the 3rd Update

#2
I think the game still lacks a variety of things to keep people entertained..

Solo training (it is IMPOSSIBLE to solo train at a high level, so if no one else is online, or no one wants to train, you have no choice).

Quests - Not enough quests for the higher levels and the Fairy Quest is okay to start with, then it just gets tedius.

Otherworld bosses I've noticed certain ones have around a 4HOUR SPAWN DELAY.. Wtf is that.. Theirs 6 bosses with very high spawn delays, and they have a 50/50 chance of being a PH, and when you do get the 6* easier version, you're lucky to just get 1 Crest. (PLEASE REMOVE WINE POTIONS, THEY ARE USELESS).

Various other things could be added but my minds blank as I've just woken up..

I certainly still see the potential of the update and what is able to come ahead.. But I personally preferred the game mechanics pre-update.

Some boss AoE skills are cool, but Quake from Golems suck.. I, as a Rogue, have never used so many idols in my days playing this game.. And as if Rogues wern't bummed enough with their own Skills originally etc. Quake technically only affects Rogues, and Tanks. All other classes are able to stay far enough away from the AoE, that it does not affect them, so the only way to get around this, is bolas-walking. However if a bolas gets evaded, the 5-10 seconds of where a Golem boss runs in and Landslides, then Quakes, can cause carnage on healers and everyone else. But I myself have used over 1K idols atleast in the last 2 months since update, and it sucks. (In process of levelling my Ranger as they don't need half as many idols and are much more useful with Bolas, and the DPS between Rangers and Rogues is very close anyway, so Rangers have a massive advantage over Rogues IMO.

Also, sure we don't have to idol, we can run back.. But when theirs a big rival clan that are after every boss and FFA a lot, if I run back it increases the chance of us losing.

Main thing I'm looking forward too - Skills to level. I.e. Crafting, Fishing etc. these will give a variety of things to do. Would also like a list of quests that give various XP for completion. For example, you do a quest that involves crafting, and fighting.. You get X Combat XP + X Crafting XP. Also a possible Quest Reward from a Crafting quest - a Knowledge Needle - Double XP in the crafting skill, with 100Charges, 3-5% to use a charge? That would be a very nice Worth-while quest in the crafting business.

Think I'm going a bit nuts with the reply here and just typing whatever pops in my head haha.

Proffered Game Mechanics pre-update, but enjoy the extra content, and appreciate OTMs Hard work to keep us all entertained.
RAPIDx - 225 Rogue
Rhiannon GameChanger

———————————
Some Guy - 220 Rogue
Epona Prodigy

Re: Two months later...Looking back at the 3rd Update

#3
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it is easy to lose sight of how far the game has come. I just think about how amazing it is that we are all even able to move characters around the landscape. Going from a small sandbox to multiple zones is an accomplishment.

I joined the community back in early December. Since then some new features have taken on a life of their own. Fashion is one area that has seen a huge response from the community. Everyone wants a new and unique look. Back in December the fashion question was would you prefer gold or gold?

Jewelry and the Arena both got favorable responses. The arena still has room to grow in the community. I don't see teams organizing and betting cash or making tournaments. But jewelry is an addition that for many players has become essential.

The new monster models are very bold and exciting. I still think about how cool it is for a huge tree to swat you with his branches or a dragon to scratch and bite at you. The monster models before the update were much more simple. Wisps were just blobs of color. Druids were human. fairies were mostly human. Connacht were human. Flintblades were human. Skullcrushers human. Parts of combs human. But the otherworld introduced new models. While some still need a little more polish than others, the new monsters are an exciting new direction for the game.
Last edited by Marshill on Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Two months later...Looking back at the 3rd Update

#4
I have just recently started playing CH again. My main annoyance was that I couldn't solo as druid. At lvl 95 is got easy to lvl, but I hear its getting more difficult at high lvls. I love grouping to lvl, its usually alot more fun. But the people I want to group with aren't always online, so I am either stuck lvling with someone I am not extremely fond of, stand around and wait for someone I like to come on, or log off and do something else I like to do much more.

@BLRD: I feel your pain. Have you tried interrupting the boss AoE spells with very fast attacks? Id like to see rogues either get a much longer "quick reflexes" skill that lets them interrupt bosses or have 1-2 interrupt skills in the first place.

I few more quests would be really nice. Eve when its just "kill 20 red eyes" type quests. There doesn't even need to be much of a story behind it. Just a few quests that give you an extra xp and gold boost would be nice.
Selene (Mage) 134 | Xellaya (Druid) 110
Clan: Uskoci
World: Arawn
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Re: Two months later...Looking back at the 3rd Update

#5
The Double XP weekend and now the Double Wisdom weekend pretty much nullified all the hard work needed to get to the top of the game. What was supposed to be 2-3 months worth, got whittled down to 6 days. Not good for a game company that's struggling to deliver content in a timely manner.

I know platinum is the lifeblood of this game and without it, the devs can't continue to work, but seriously, this is the only mmo i know that has a very wide gap between plat buyers and non plat buyers, and every thing I've seen just continue to cater towards plat buyers. If non-plat buyers can't enjoy the game, pretty soon this game will lose a lot of its player base.
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There are two types of people in this world: Those who crave closure

A business is more profitable if they don't gouge and piss off customers.

Re: Two months later...Looking back at the 3rd Update

#6
Honestly, I believe this last update transformed the game... For the better.

However there are some bads to go with the good:
1. What is five star otherworld boss problems, their drops are unfathomable an quite frankly everyone has a mound of orbs with no crest market to use em with( basically we need more crests)
2. The solo leveling this at high levels is a huge issue... -it's impossible. Fix the mobs and playing and leveling at high levels will be much better( altho the otherworld was perhaps the greatest addition to the update ad it gave high levels somewhere to enjoy)

However, overall the greatness of the update can be seen through the following six words:

DO YOU REMEMBER THE OLD FARCRAG?
:) nud said
Legolas15
Retired
The greatest warrior to ever grace Arawn ;)
Brother to Jcbeast

Re: Two months later...Looking back at the 3rd Update

#8
Hi- played CH when it first came out on Epona and still have a mid level warrior there. I did not like the game at all and went to OnC and max level, epic geared multiples of each class. Eventually the end game dynamics, massive prevalence of scamming, spamming, third party greed and general dysfunctionality of Game Loft (that must be a horrible place to work) caused to me to quit. Though I still have all my toons on multiple accounts and a subscirption through the end of the year, I have not played for months and do not plan to play again.

On xp and plat events:
I started playing again shortly after the 3rd update. The x2 exp and x2 plat events allowed me to catch up enough to friends I knew from OnC to shift from solo grinding to clan based grouping. I like to be able to do some of both. I realize that people who have really worked for months may think less of me for this. Let me say that this dilemma has existed since MMO's were invented. It is not in any way unique to CH. Most MMO's simply get ruined, IMO, by third party greed that has no concern for gaming the gaming experience or player community, that results in massive gold farming efforts, botting and hacks for profit, 3rd party account sales, etc. As far as I can tell CH is virtually free from this. The focus therefore, whether plat buyer or not, is very much on the gaming exp.

One Thumb seems amazingly personal and responsive compared to big corporate MMO's and seems to genuinely want to continuously improve the game. Furthermore, they seem unhindered by the corporate politics that cause a schism between those wanting that and the business side. Wizard 101 is maybe the only other game that managed to stay free of that for a long time. This is the upside of One Thumbs plat system. It also means that someone like me who works for a living, has intensive RL commitments and periods of time where I can play a lot and periods of time where that is not possible can conceivably play end game content. I can make a trade off between gaming time and RL commitments without violating the ToS or ruining the game dynamics. In truth I have mixed feeling about improving the in game communication, adding mail and an auction house, because these can serve 3rd party game ruining profiteers as much or more than players.

Gaming Experience:
I feel with the latest updates One Thumb has hit a great balance between graphic appeal and playability on a portable platform (well except for the recent skinny leg problem, which is both hilarious and disappointing). On the one hand I never really lose sight of CH as a game, which allows me to keep my sense of humor. On the other hand I find there is a lot to learn and get better at, which keeps me engaged. For me gear always only serves this, rather than being an end in itself.

I like to play all classes in a game. Despite the complaints about class imbalance I feel that the classes are very fit for purpose. What seems to me the real issue being addressed has to do with the difference between PvP and PvE. The complaints about warriors are exactly the things that allow them to tank effectively. There are things that can be improved, but I really feel One Thumb is working to do that, with of course the occassional mistakes involved in that process. I have never played a game where there was not a constant and often acrimonious debate about this. I have never seen an active Rogue(dps) community that did not feel slighted and was constantly advocating for more power. :) Goes with the territory and it is not wrong to do. I have never played a game where at some point there was not a nerf war between class communities, sometimes warranted, often not. So if you take those dynamics as a given this game seems very balanced to me.

The Myth of Soloing as an Entitlement
I feel CH has done a great job of making so much of the game soloable. Many, many MMO's cannot be solo'd by most classes beyond the very, very beginning of the game without real creativity and lots of work. Sometimes there is one class that is more proficient at solo play up to a certain level, but even then they eventually must group for boss drops to progress. I say this having solo'd to high levels in many MMO's at some point in their development. CH has made it possible for a wide variety of players and playstyles to enjoy the game. The end game content in virtually every MMO requires extensive organization and collaboration, both for gear and for leveling. As the game matures and new content is added, the solo cut off level changes. If you do not learn how to do this you simply will not ever have real end game gear, unless the game has fallen beyond repair into 3rd party greed and profiteering.

Nostalgia:
Games change and grow. Different people like different stages of this for different reasons. As the game and game dynamics change there is almost always tension between the 'old school' community and the 'immigrants', noobs, what have you. This can be healthy or unhealthy. All games have a turnover in the player community, and to be sustainable the old school players welcome, teach and learn from the immigrants. It can be a big challenge for old school players to adapt to changes. On method is to level a completely new toon and class when changes are made. This allows the player to see to what extent there feeling of nostalgia has to do with game dynamics at different levels of the game and what to do with the changes. Sometimes in order to leave a game or gaming community people feel that they need to make the community and game wrong in some fundamental way. Sometimes this is grounded in the experience of something simply no longer being enjoyable due to changes, sometimes it has more to do with the player and if they had no 'history' in the game they would be loving the current dynamics.

Continue, Stop, Start/Add/Improve:
I have been posting some of this in Feedback and Suggestions. These are mostly long term things, since I know your plate is full now.

Continue to promote the responsive and open relationship between One Thumb and the CH community.

Continue to develop end game content, graphics balance, meaningful updates, events, celebrations, etc.

Continue to use a model that mostly eliminates 3rd party profiteering. I would much rather give CH my money and have that go to game improvement than have the player economy leeched by profiteers that do nothing to improve the game and often ruin it.

Continue adding vanity items, collectables with no particular function and mounts, gear diversity that allows diverse play styles.

The game currently has a beautiful simplicity to it, while still being challenging. Consider this before making any major changes.

Stop releasing what seems to be relatively untested content. This makes for player drama and increased cost for CH.

Start- add a new class. This allows your established player base to have a refreshed experience of the from start to finish. (I want Bards.) ;) Consider adding an end game class that is only available to players who have a toon that has successfully reached a certain level.

Start- improve chat and player interaction, game dynamic feedback functions. Feedback functions are critical since they let players experience their own improvement more richly.

Start- new quests that run from level one all the way through the game. (this is already ok in the way that it is necessary and useful to return to all zones of the game.)

Start- cautiously explore mail, auction houses and crafting. These will radically change the player experience so be conservative.

Improve some of the basic dps skills. The DoTs in particular are sub par and improved DoTs, or limited stacking would go a long way to satisfy your melee based dps community.

Improve PvP as there is great interest in this by your player community. Consider open PvP areas within the game, again cautiously since this can be a source of griefing and abuse. Consider holding some PvP oriented events with rewards. Some games even have gear that is only useful in PvP. You could start an arena only gear line, though again cautiously. This can be designed so that gear only becomes available with PvP rank and still be a revenue stream for you. This makes it so someone cannot simply pay to be good, but still helps CH. If you do this you will probably need to reset all PvP ranks based on a seasonal calendar. This will also allow you to create, individual, team and clan leaderboards.

Consider making such things as sigils visible (as tattoos or auras). This gives honor to people who are not play buyers, since you can see that they are hardcore, but at the same time can serve as a kind of status symbol for plat buyers. This is potentially divisive, but you already have the beginnings of divisive dynamics around this. This makes it part of the game.

Add a test server. Allow players to spawn one of their toons at their current level to run tests. Have the server and those toons be absolutely impermanent and completely wiped on a regular basis.

Consider cross server transfers and activity. This is a potential revenue stream, but also needs to be designed carefully to prevent mass migration to one server. The upside is that it integrates all communities across all servers.

Consider making a PvP server with safe areas and controllable zones. :twisted:

Consider adding capture the flag and team instances to the arena. Many people used the green presents in a very innovative way to do this. (so far I have found this player community friendly, welcoming and very creative about now to play and enjoy the game, but then again I was lucky enough to be invited to join Serenity). :D

That is all (lol) on the top of my head. Again, I think One Thumb is doing a remarkable job and in fact must be a good place to work, as far as gaming companies go. There are several sorts of growth crises that all MMO's face and so far One Thumb seems to be doing a good job of this. One Thumb might want to look at the historic Craigslist business model as a very innovative growth model employed by what is by far the largest Internet portal/enterprise on the planet.
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Re: Two months later...Looking back at the 3rd Update

#9
Some really amazing comments. Caliban, few will probably read that post in it's entirety but I am sure that OTM will. It's a well thought out post, and exceptionally crafted. Thanks for sharing.

To add on to your thoughts, all your thoughts.

I would like to see One Thumb not NOT NOT repeat update 3. Meaning, I would rather them give us a much faster update with less content, but all highly polished. Add a new lvl of content into the game, but lessen the additions. Can't add mounts yet? Don't. I know horses have been widely discussed previously and obviously the castle has them stabled as a foreshadowing of future...but I would much rather see like:

•New Detailed Character Models & some new quest/zone content.. If not a whole new area, a new section...expand the lava fields to contain new area in the OW...possibly... Add a noxious posion field, or some new area, if not a new zone. Maybe add the Tower Dungeon and quest lines.
• an auction house
• a mailing system
• a basic crafting system with possibilities for more detailed system to be patched in.

Just 4 things... If crafting is too far away put it in the next update.. But the point is DON'T PLEASE lump tons of content into this update and continue to add on to all these things and maroon the player base. If anything...be conservative. Get done 2-3 things, but do them really well. And make the new update and it's beta quick, really quick, but really worth it.

Then just as before Patch it. I would love to see a new update 4 out in September and see it up the gameplay and the interface, but be willing to leave things out to offer other things faster.
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Teaweasel 121 Druid (Morrigan, Clan: Avalon, On Hiatus)
Teaweasel 133 Druid (Arawn, Retired)
Best Build is a 30/30 in Thinking for yerself ;)

Re: Two months later...Looking back at the 3rd Update

#10
Start- add a new class. This allows your established player base to have a refreshed experience of the from start to finish. (I want Bards.) ;) Consider adding an end game class that is only available to players who have a toon that has successfully reached a certain level.
Have been saying this for a while and it is a great and much needed idea. Most of us high levels have a few other chars but if there was a new unique and USEFUL class that can only be unlocked by reaching a high level (maybe 100) then higher level players would play more to reexperience the game and have the first high level of that character. I think it should be a character like a monk who can use fist weapons and isn't super powerful but can attack fast to disrupt boss attacks and has a lot of useful status effects that makes him desirable to group with. Similar to a druid but a better attacking class and no added healing powers except a group regen spell or something unique. You guys added all the cool new beginning content and most high levels have not played through it. Give us a reason to start over and put more hours into the game.
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